hth: (Hth the 2nd)
Hth ([personal profile] hth) wrote2006-04-08 11:41 am

on emo porn

Mary and I have started using this term in conversation a lot, and because I'm really off the beaten path of metafandom stuff lately, I'm not sure how widespread the phrase is. Anyway, I really like it, because it has a lot of relevance to slash and fanfic, but also to gen and canon, and to me it seems to describe...at least part of what people always talk about as "the slash aesthetic."

So what, I asked myself, *is* emo porn, exactly? And the best I could do at defining it is that emo porn is a climactic moment of high-pitch emotion that is completely focused and unmixed, normally but not always focused on the purity of two characters' feelings for one another. You know it not by what's said but by how it's deployed, the kind of reaction it's intended to elicit from the audience: a breathles, riveted, completely absorbing moment of emotional response. Other kinds of writing tries to make you feel something, to be sure, but emo porn's goal is to make you feel that *whatever you are feeling is everything* -- at least for that moment. It goes straight for the spine, and when it's done well, there's a kind of disconnected elation that results, where you feel like you've been mainlining some powerful emotion in its purest form. To elaborate, a few points of interest:

-- emo porn is not necessarily sexual
Obviously, people's interpretations of which characters are playing out a sexual dynamic varies, but I don't mean this simply in a text/subtext kind of way. I mean that while there is subtextual emo porn, where the emo porn gets read as standing in for or representing a perceived sexual tension, there is also emo porn that overtly takes place between lovers (Angel was particularly good at emo porn with his girlfriends: e.g. "I Will Rememer You" and "You're Welcome" -- different girlfriends, same emo porn!), and also emo porn that takes place in a manifestly non-sexual relationship, such as between parents and children (the example that springs to mind for me is Buffy and Giles at the end of "Passion," which, I realize there are such things as Buffy/Giles shippers, even though -- no, no, no, please stop making Buffy sleep with her dad, it's *awful*! -- but even given that it may be problematic as an example of nonsexual relationships, I wanted to give it a nod since it got edged off my Top Five below by another daddy/daughter emo porn moment). I've noticed that it's getting harder and harder to get fandom to agree that there is any such thing as a non-sexual relationship *g* (I thought about using Simon letting hiself be burned at the stake so River doesn't have to do it alone in "Safe" as my example but that's contested, too, in terms of sexual vs. nonsexual -- there's honestly no pleasing you people), but the point is that just because you identify something in canon as being emo porn does not automatically mean that you see, or want to see, anything sexual in the characters' relationship. I personally am a fan of platonic emo porn, as you'll notice when I get to my list.

-- emo porn is not necessarily predicated on trauma
Usually, yes. Usually it's a terrible moment of pain and loss, wherein the only thing they have to turn to for comfort is each other -- or worse, where they're denied each other's comfort and it's all, well, dreadful. But you can have happy emo porn, I swear! The end of the first run of the UK Queer as Folk, where Stuart and Vince reunite just with their eyes is awesome emo porn, and makes me ecstatically happy. If you prefer the US version, I'd say Justin's prom at the end of season 1 contains some prime emo porn, even before they start bringing the pain. There seems to be something in our collective brains that makes us more receptive to dark emo porn, while the happier stuff runs the risk of being dismissed as fluff or schmoop or whatever, but making you want to kill yourself at the same time it sends you into an ecstatic rapture of ohmygodthatwassoamazing! is not a functional part of the definition. It's just common.

-- emo porn is girly (corrollary: not everything slashy is also emo porn)
No, this is not me delving into the debate (such as it is) on "feminizing" characters. And I am mindful of the fact that most, if not all, of the emo porn I'm referencing from canoncial sources actually was invented by men, and I definitely don't want to produce a thesis statement at the moment regarding the definition of masculine and feminine. However, I think when male characters and writers indulge in emo porn, they are by definition stepping outside the paramaters of (blah blah disclaimercakes) what we generally consider man-like behavior. There are some characters and shows that use very little emo porn -- even some famously slashy characters and shows. These are guys who emote in a much more firmly guy-like way; their expressions of love and emotion are *totally real* and highly slashy, but they think of themselves as guy's guys, and they wouldn't be caught dead doing emo porn. In this category, I include Due South. The show is slashy as all hell, but things are signaled in quiet, sometimes slightly awkward, strong and pragmatic ways, with the exception of a single episode ("Victoria's Secret"), where it isn't the slash relationship that gets emo porned. I'm thinking of something like "North" or "Asylum," where the male characters' loyalty and devotion is unquestioned, but it isn't written, shot, or acted as an intensely, *expressively* emotional release. It's just known and accepted, without a lot of fuss. Supernatural skews the same way; there's been a small amount of emo porn (interestingly, IMO none of it very successful, because it doesn't suit the characters as well as the other style), but mostly they abide by the No Chick Flick Moments maxim, and we're simply left to know how much they love each other without consolidating it into the kind of purity and intensity emo porn requires. SGA is also a slashy show with a distinct lack of emo porn, which, thank God. I wouldn't trust these writers within a hundred yards of it.

It's in fanfiction, however, where emo porn really comes into its own. We are amazingly skilled at remixing source materials to create emo porn -- in fact, it's probably not a coincidence that some of the most popular fandoms are those like the above that specifically refuse to canon-ify emo porn. Suddenly, we all want to add it ourselves. I'm not up to compiling a list of my favorite fanfic emo porn; life is way too short, but I think it's not much of an overstatement to say that I often read fic actively looking for the emo porn, that that's my primary (if perhaps not my only) purpose in reading fanfic at all. In fact, I'm deeply tempted to make the impossibly contentious statement that slash is in some sense about creating emo porn, which is why some stories that seem textually gen can "feel like" slash, and some that feature gay sex can feel oddly *off* somehow, like they don't quite fit in with the rest of the genre (of course, I'm reminded by Mary that not everyone considers slash a "genre," so...yes. Duly noted.) Anyway, if I were to make that statement, everyone and their dog would immediately be like "So you're saying you don't consider blah bliddy blah slash?" and I would be like, "Um, well, yes, I do, but, so, the thing, uh..." and look quite foolish, which is why I'm resisting the temptation.

And now that I've offered up this totally subjective and probably not very useful primer on What I Mean When I Say Emo Porn, just for fun, my five favorite emo porn moments on television, in no particular order.

1) Wiseguy, the "Nights in White Satin" scene. If you remember this show, you know exactly what I mean and are totally on board with me. If you don't, you probably wouldn't believe me if I described it to you. I consider this the gold standard to which all emo porn aspires.

2) The Yellow Crayon scenes in "Grave," season 6 BtVS, Willow & Xander. Never having been much of a W/X shipper, this makes an excellent example of how a person can view emo porn as reflecting a particularly intense friendship rather than a sublimated romance.

3) Jim and Blair's fight in "Warriors," The Sentinel. This show sort of walked the line between indulging in emo porn and operating out of that Guy Romance model I alluded to above. This scene, to me, crosses that line -- something about their physicality, how close they stand, how they try to communicate how serious they are about what they're saying through touches that are almost violent but actually not really - it's more like they're trying to physically *bring* one another, push or pull them, toward seeing things their way, and I think it's a perfect reflection of how connected Jim and Blair are even when they argue. Every time I see even the half-second clip from it that ran in the opening credits, I get a little shivery.

4) Keith's "If they take you away..." scene in "Donut Run," Veronica Mars. Any scene with the words "I would not survive without you" in the actual dialogue is, ipso facto, emo porn. This is such a great episode, and even as much as I adore him, I sometimes forget, Enrico can really act.

5) "Walking in Memphis," The X-Files, "Postmodern Prometheus." See, I put a happy one on the list! This was great emo porn and an effective scene in general because of its resonance both for shippers and non-shippers. It doesn't matter. This scene does not give a damn if Mulder and Scully ever have sex, or secretly want to, or if you the viewer want them to. At that moment, they're "together" in the sense of being on the same page, of being glad and grateful for each other, of simply and overtly taking enormous pleasure in each other's company. It's the defining Mulder/Scully scene for me for the whole series.

Thanks for indulging me by reading this far! If you want to include shining examples of emo porn as you see it in the comments, please do! I'm interested.
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[identity profile] wickedwords.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 09:26 am (UTC)(link)
This is very similar to what we've (we being [livejournal.com profile] sherrold and myself) been calling 'peak moments' -- those moments of pure emotional intensity that just -- *guh* -- slam into you and make you vibrate with the rightness of the moment. Calling it emo porn totally works, as it really is an emotional climax. When I read fan ficiton, I am looking for those moments, that peak intensity, and it's usually not something that I always find in the show.

For myself, if I am watching a show and getting those peak moments (ala Buffy), it makes me less interested in finding fanficiton, as I am still living the high from the show. It's all about those peak moments for me.

[identity profile] cesperanza.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 10:04 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, this is a great post, and a rockin' list. I can't help but think two things: 1) that there's something here that used to be connected to some older (possibly more Greek) notion of 'climax', and 2) that shows that fail to give us emo porn are operating with a distinctively, hm, modern, Western, and increasingly American view of masculinity; I say this possibly because I just recently saw some flamenco dancing, and seriously, it's pure emo porn; much of Christian ritual is pure emo porn; and the best ballet; and, er, whenever Bradley Whitford makes with the big eyes.*g* (Yes, I understand I will be struck dead for listing these things together.)

[identity profile] pearl-o.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 10:19 am (UTC)(link)
I would argue that there are a lot of moments between John and Aeryn on Farscape that fit this model -- which is maybe why they're so incredibly freaking satisfying as a couple, because we keep getting that -- but their last scene together in "Dog with Two Bones" is the first thing that comes to mind for me.

I'm also immediately struck by the "Thirteen!" scene in Rome's "The Spoils", which is interesting because it seems overtly on the masculine type (no dialogue or talking about feelings, lots of violence) and yet ... man. Totally emo porn, pure and overwhelming.
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[personal profile] cofax7 2006-04-09 10:02 am (UTC)(link)
Dog With Two Bones! ::flails::

Err, yeah. What she said. ::points upwards::

The list of emo porn J/A moments in Farscape would fill volumes.

[identity profile] princessofg.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 10:21 am (UTC)(link)
oh hell yes. so by this definition, slash=emo porn, or slash=m/m nc 17 sex. I don't follow any of the fandoms you reference except TS, but that scene from Warriors affects me exactly the same way it affects you. I love that show.

your discussion is exactly why pwp's don't interest me now that the new has worn off of slash for me UNLESS there's emo porn or h/c or character development or SOMETHING going on with the fucking or the blowjobs or whatever.

by your definition does emo porn=smarm? how would smarm fit in? because in most of our pairings that aren't Enemy Lurv, like Harry/Draco, smarm is canon.

(I first found you in TS, btw, and am not quite in SGA but can't help reading it because, well, the fanfic is so damn GOOD just now.)
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[identity profile] cathexys.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 12:22 pm (UTC)(link)
but isn't a large attraction of PWPs (that's at least my argument and i'll stick to it :-) that it's emo by context, i.e., a particlar scene may not necessarily involve all the buildup but by being able to put it in the contexct of the show, the context of the dynamic, we extrapolate potential pre- and postcursors to that particular moment? [same in vignettes a lot of times...hich is why it works in fanfic and rarely in original..everything is already there in terms of tension and buildup and...]

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[identity profile] mikeneko.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 10:25 am (UTC)(link)
1) Wiseguy, the "Nights in White Satin" scene. If you remember this show, you know exactly what I mean and are totally on board with me.

Absolutely.

When I got the first season DVDs, first thing I did was pop in the last disc to go directly to this scene . . . only to discover that they'd replaced "Nights in White Satin" with something completely different. I had to whack the sound off before my memory got remixed as well.

Honestly. They should have paid whatever they were asking for the rights. It would have been worth it.

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, that is bad and wrong and horrible. That actually hurts me. *clutches my VHS copy protectively to my chest*

[identity profile] 2am-optimism.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 11:03 am (UTC)(link)
Fantastic post!

I know what you mean when you say DS isn't exactly overt emo porn, but for me, one of the prime moments that would fit the bill (at least if I understand what you're getting across) is the scene in MotB when Ray hits Fraser. CKR does the best emotionally devastated look I've ever seen. Those EYES...just...

It *is* heavily on the traumatic side of the scale, but I think that look is the most revealing moment of the strength of Ray's feelings in a show that is liberally sprinkled with less emo slash, for want of a better term :)

[identity profile] villainny.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 12:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Hunh.

See, I would say Mountie on the Bounty too, only not that moment. I was just thinking about this as I read the post.

The moment for me is when they're discussing their transfers, and Fraser asks if Ray will take his, and he says "Me? No." That quick. Like it was never even a consideration. The punch doesn't resolve anything, it starts it, and outside events force them to fix things. And everything in the episode is about small releases of tension, and small motions towards each other, and frustration, all the way through. And then the transfer talk, which just releases all the tension in one go. Because it's still them. And they look at each other, and start laughing, because they can... breathe again.

*goes pink*

Er... and I totally didn't mean to go off on one quite so much. This isn't even my fandom. Er. Sorry about that.

*sidles off, hands in pockets*

[identity profile] logovo.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 11:38 am (UTC)(link)
Such an excellent post. Putting into memories and will probably reference it in a future post in my Spanish LJ, because you pretty much nailed it for me.

[identity profile] villainny.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 12:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, see that was really interesting.

(I've popped over from my friends' friends list, apologies for invading.)

It resonated, because there's something I look for in fanfiction that I wasn't sure how to categorise - I've always considered myself a slasher without question, but recently I've started to question that. Because I'm not satisfied just with gay sex. PWPs don't do a hell of a lot for me. It's the build-ups, the characterisation, and the climax - which could be a sexual thing, but doesn't have to be. I've been blinkering myself, I think, to entirely too great an extent, and you've put your finger on why - it wasn't the porn I was after, after all. It was the emotion.

Hunh. Stuff to think about. New fic to trundle off in search of.

Very much obliged.

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 07:03 pm (UTC)(link)
No problem, and it really isn't invading! If I didn't want anyone new to find me, I'd have a friends-locked journal *g*

And I truly don't mean to diss the PWP entirely -- I like well-written porn, I honestly do! It meets some of my reading needs, some of the time. And then other times there's other things I want, just like sometimes I want schmoopy, happy romance-novel stuff and sometimes I want hard-edged character pieces and sometimes all I really want out of life is a cracky AU with a furry talking octopus.

But I do think there's such a thing as a "slash aesthetic" -- not that all slash falls under it, but that enough does that people identify certain things with how slash normally is, and I'm always poking around at it, trying to figure out what it is. This is the closest I've gotten so far *g*
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[identity profile] cathexys.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 12:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I've been having too many conversations lately where I say slashis and then get rebutted by what it isn't these days any more all the time or even the majority of the time. And now I wonder if slash used to be more emo pornish more of the time...

This is a great term and one I'm sure we'll have to mull over for a while, but I think it's clearly connected to a lot of what appeals in h/c (though it need not be as you point out) and clearly Ces's right to connect it to catharsis...and yes, if I were trying to define slash aesthetic? That'd be it!!! (Which is why I sometimes catch myself reading m/m fanfic and feeling that that's not slash TO ME or why I can read original m/m and call it slash without hesitation!)

[identity profile] princessofg.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 12:33 pm (UTC)(link)
yes, exactly. it's a form of catharsis, a form of romance or emotion.

differentiate from smarm, please... the climax of smarm. *waits expectantly*

i think slash is so big and subtle and so in the eye of the beholder than defining it is hard and it changes over time. kind of like defining rock music or jazz music, yes?

or porn. i know it when i see it, as the supreme court justice said. but like you, i like trying.

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[identity profile] dossier.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 12:22 pm (UTC)(link)
it wasn't the porn I was after, after all. It was the emotion.

I'll second that.

I hadn't exactly labeled it, but yeah, this is the driving force behind what I'm looking for in fanfiction. If I find it in a Gen or slash story doesn't matter. the only scene above that I could immediately relate to was the XF reference, which has always been one of my favorite scenes, despite a definite noromo bent.
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[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/solo____/ 2006-04-08 01:43 pm (UTC)(link)
In fact, I'm deeply tempted to make the impossibly contentious statement that slash is in some sense about creating emo porn, which is why some stories that seem textually gen can "feel like" slash, and some that feature gay sex can feel oddly *off* somehow, like they don't quite fit in with the rest of the genre

Yes!!!

And apart from the Nights in White Satin scene you cite, I don't know your examples, but your description is... yes. (And the reason I haven't bought the WG DVDs is that I've heard somewhere they cut that scene.)

Many PWPs do nothing for me, but some gen stories... boy, take 'The Goliath' in Starsky & Hutch, it's full of that stuff.

I'd disagree, though, that you can't find it in shows like Due South. Maybe it depends on the the level of explicitness you require. Sometimes the quiet moments can do it. Just a look exchanged, some moment of connection. And sometimes, the more subtle, the more effective it is.

Or maybe that's just me.

More emo porn:

Starsky blowing away the only guy (they think) who can save his life in A Coffin for Starsky, because the guy is about to shoot Hutch.

Blair's press conference in The Sentinel by Blair Sandburg - and I'm not even a TS fan.

Ponders the above... it seems that for me, the actual, physical presence of the other partner isn't even strictly necessary. Hm.

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe it depends on the the level of explicitness you require. Sometimes the quiet moments can do it. Just a look exchanged, some moment of connection. And sometimes, the more subtle, the more effective it is.

But a functional part of my definition of emo porn is that it *is* explicit, and it's not quiet, and it's not subtle. Emo porn -- at least, as I'm defining it, and obviously you're not under any obligation to think I know what I'm talking about *g* -- is TPTB (or the fic writer) grabbing you by the collar and shaking you.

I love dS, and I love TS -- I think I have pretty good cred established in both fandoms *g*, so surely nobody thinks I'm dissing them when I say I don't see much emo porn in their canon. Subtle moments of connection, in the hands of good writers and good actors, are *absolutely* effective ways of making the viewer feel something and letting us know what the characters mean to each other, and in both the S&H moment you mention and TSbyBS, sometimes it is what people do and not how they do it that proves a point. All that is great writing and effective storytelling and all that, but I maintain it's not emo porn. All the fanfic people write based on that event, however? 95% emo porn.

Anyway, like I said, you can not like my definition if you want; that's cool. But I'm trying to create a definition that depends on the emotiveness and in-your-faceness of the scene and specifically includes the kind of subtlety you're talking about. Not because it's bad! Just because it's something different, IMO.

[identity profile] harriet-spy.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 02:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Couldn't you have emo porn that is focused on an individual rather than a relationship, though? If the point is the pure focus on emotion? Like Buffy in "Prophecy Girl": "Tell me my future!" Or in Spiderman 2: "I am Spiderman no more!"

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 07:30 pm (UTC)(link)
You totally could! In fact, I thought up a couple examples of that, too -- I think Logan watching the tapes of his father and Lilly on VMars is *spectacular* emo porn, and although obviously we get to it through the nature of his relationship to both people, the moment is really about Logan's aloneness and his awareness of it. Another scene that almost made my list is in Oz, where Beecher comforts Keller after his nightmare of burning in hell, which people sometimes mistake for a B/K scene, but is actually completely about Keller's fears of punishment and his relationship with God, which becomes a major theme as the season goes on. And, yeah, a kazillion different Buffy scenes, because Buffy as a character was pretty much all emo porn, all the time *g*

I think those are more rare, however, because truly personal and interior events are honestly pretty rare. We're such intensely social animals; we live the vast majority of our lives relating to people in one way or another. In isolation, we don't do all that much, so obviously we don't feel all that intensely. Or this would be my argument, at least -- I don't have a lot of data to back that up *g*

[identity profile] cetpar.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 02:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Hhhm. The one scene that jumps out at me as emo porn is a scene between Methos and Duncan in Highlander. The one from Comes A Horseman where they are by the car and Methos reveals to Duncan that he was "Death". That scene gives me shivers everytime I watch--the emotion involved and the physicality of it is what gets me every time.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_swallow/ 2006-04-08 04:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah. I've been using the term "emotional pornography" for years, actually!

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 02:33 pm (UTC)(link)
[livejournal.com profile] marythefan, who actually came up with the term, was cautioning me at lunch today about the different resonances of "emotional pornography" and "emotion-pornography" or "pornography of emotion," and I think she has a point. "Emotional pornography" makes porn the subject and emotional an adjective describing what kind of porn it is -- which isn't quite the point. "Emotion-porn" comes closer to centering the term as a definition of a kind of *emotion,* with pornography as the modifier. What kind of emotion? Pornographic emotion! (Only porn-emo sounds stupid *g*) It's kind of a picky point, but I think an interesting distinction.

here from metafandom

[identity profile] annwyd.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Interestingly, I've recently been thinking about how one thing that is practically an ironclad guarantee of drawing me into a pairing is when two characters start off, near the beginning of their relationship, with a moment of incredibly intense connection, primarily non-romantic and unconventional in nature, maybe with some romantic undertones (bonus points if they later develop more concrete romantic [sub]text).

Pairings that are already romantic in nature from the start also have a higher chance of reeling me in if they have moments of shocking, intensely dramatic connection between the two characters.

I could reel off examples, but they'd all be anime/manga (alas), and thus not of much use here. Still, this makes me wonder if my obsession with these moments of dramatic, unconventional connection ties into fandom's deeper love for emo porn.

Re: here from metafandom

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-04-09 11:29 am (UTC)(link)
WORD.

My two "central" ships are like that: Clark/Lex in Smallville and Liz/Max in Roswell.

:thinks:

And Ben/Meg in Sunset Beach, come to that.
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[identity profile] dzurlady.livejournal.com 2006-04-09 05:45 am (UTC)(link)
It's interesting that you don't define SPN as emo porn, because to me it's *very* emo pornish, as I understand it from your definition. I'm thinking of things like at the end of Scarecrow, when Sam's talking about family, or when Sam shoots Dean in Asylum. Purely out of interest and not out of antogonism, why do you not see it as being emo porn?

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
My roommate -- and the actual originator of the term emo porn -- [livejournal.com profile] marythefan just did a post on this, and she's the real SPN expert in the house, so I'd go to her with your questions *g* The best I can do to explain it is that SPN has a flirty sort of technique, where the characters tend to ballet around the meat of their feelings in ways that let us know what's going on, but never come straight out and *say* it in a deliberate way. Or, not never. There are moments, but I think we're much more often picking up on the vibe than the show is giving us the, dare I say, money shot.

[identity profile] clare-san.livejournal.com 2006-04-09 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
It's funny that you're using the term emo porn. I picked up the phrase Emotional Porn somewhere along the way in reference to the movie Love Actually. I think we're generally talking about the same thing, though. That kindof over-the-top obvious emotional ... not really rollercoaster, but something like that. It's pornographic in that it's explicit and gripping and makes you totally caught up in the moment, much like traditional porn, but instead of sex, it's your emotions that are being titillated.

I think it's interesting that a bunch of different people coming from a bunch of different areas and places and whatnot can hit upon the sameish terminology. ^_^

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 02:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I think you're on the same page as I am! And I do think Love Actually contains a lot of emo porn, which is why I kind of *adore* that movie and cry every time they do the "God only knows where I'd be without you" montage at the end. It's -- yeah, *explicit* is the right word. It's like a big ol' kick in the balls to subtext, it's going "miss *this,* punk!" Which you wouldn't want to watch all the time (much like porn...), but for those of us with a taste for it, it can be truly awesome.

[identity profile] sgatlantislight.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 07:10 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not familiar with any of the moments you're talking about, unfortunately. I'm wondering about your exclusion of SGA, because to me Rodney just oozes emo moments. I'm specifically wondering about things like the season 1 finale and the look on Rodney's face as he says, "You let Sheppard fly that jumper?" 'cause it just slams into you what he's feeling, all of it, in just that one moment-- all the emotions just laid bare on his face.

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 02:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, maybe this is the clearer way to make the distinction: I think emo porn requires deliberate disclosure. It can be subtly done (I know you said you didn't recognize it, but one of the QAF moments I mentioned is entirely wordless and quite brief), but one of the key elements has to be that one or both of the characters is intentionally putting something out there, some frenzy of emotion they can't keep back anymore.

Rodney's MO, and the MO of a lot of the stuff I was talking about as guy-slashy, is that you see his emotion *through* his attempts not to self-disclose. He's always trying to keep that stiff upper lip -- and failing, much to our delight. But what he's never done is, instead of "You let Sheppard fly that jumper?" say "If Sheppard dies because you let him fly that jumper, you will pay until the end of time!" Or whatever. He doesn't *say* it. He doesn't *go there,* in some very significant way. Likewise on the other side of the scale, I think John's emotions are very raw and accessible in "Epiphany," but it's against his will; to the degree that he can control it, he constantly tries to.

It's just a different approach, relying more on the spaces and silences and timing and whatnot. I think Rodney is emo *g*, but that doesn't mean he's ever engaged in *emo porn.*

[personal profile] indywind 2006-04-10 07:28 am (UTC)(link)
This is a really interesting way to think of it. I think the 'emo porn' is a large part of what I come to slash for, and why I, and some other folks, can groove on genfic as much as on Teh Hawt Sex.

Though maybe I would suggest that the understated Male-Type Romance isn't NOT emo porn, it's just ::flails a little:: to use the sex metaphor, the emo porn climax moment is the Mindblowing Orgasm in emotional terms, and the male-type romance ala most-of-dueSouth is coasting along in the almost-but-not-quite-turned-on-enough-to-come zone. If you see what I mean.

When did I start thinking sexual metaphors made literatry deconstruction clearer?

[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 02:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, but to abuse the metaphor a little? It's kind of like saying that the sex in, let's say, Monster's Ball isn't not porn just because it's done differently. Except...yeah, it kind of *is* not porn, exactly because it's done differently. It's very explicit, but it's filmed differently and for different purposes in a different context and it's just not the same.

Again, that's not an analogy I want to carry too far. You're right, it's not great for clarity! But what I'm saying is that if emo porn is "pornographic" emotion and the other thing (God, I need a clever name for that, too) is shivery or erotic or turned-on or sexualized or whatthehellever emotion, then they are in fact different. Both good, but different. Related, but different. And when you specifically want one, the other will not necessarily do it for you at that particular moment -- though, like me, you can be a fan of both. Following me?

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[personal profile] indywind - 2006-04-12 11:50 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] lovelypoet.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 10:41 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm. REally interesting stuff. And if I'm understanding you (and really I'd have to say my moments are:

The West Wing - The entirety of "Two Cathedrals." If you need specific moment it's after we've seen him yell at God and give up, desecrating his own faith by stamping his cigarette out in the middle of the floor. And then we get that few minutes that kills me every time. The wind, the rain, his conversation with Mrs. Landingham's ghost, the use of Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" as he makes his way to the press conference and makes up his mind. It's as un-shippy and unslashy as it gets, but it still reveals absolutely everything about what this woman meant to him, clarifies that so much of who Jed Bartlett is is because of her. More than anything, including his own faith in God and his own aspirations, it is the thought of disappointing Mrs. Landingham is what kicks him in the ass. And it does it in a way that makes me catch my breath every time. If nothing else, it has forever altered the way I listen to "Brothers in Arms."

Actually, now that I think about it, I think Aaron Sorkin excels at Emo-porn across the board. When he is good, he is very, very good.




[identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 02:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, God, yeah, that scene in the cathedral! I hadn't thought about that, but yes. I also think there are some exssssselent emo porn moments in "Noel." Oddly, Aaron does emo porn very well, but not romantic emo porn. His romantic subplots tend to bite the big one, IMHO, but Dan's "We need each other desperately" speech in April Is the Cruelest Month -- zoinks! I sit all close to the tv screen and shiver and sometimes touch it to feel that little literal electric zap. Er, now that I think about it, that's terribly weird. Pretend you don't know that about me.

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[identity profile] lovelypoet.livejournal.com - 2006-04-10 14:22 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] elspethdixon.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Great point about emotional intensity forming part of the slash aesthetic. I've often read gen (and original fic) that really, really felt like slash to me, despite a complete lack of m/m action--something in the way the characters interacted just felt like well-written fanfic. I think it's that "emotionally satisfying" quality.

Victorian novels are all about the emo porn. Every major event that befalls the protagonists is earth shattering, every interaction between major characters is intensely emotional, and the melodrama just keeps on coming ^_^.

I've also heard soppy romance of the Nicholas Sparks variety referred to as "relationship porn."

[identity profile] exsequar.livejournal.com 2006-04-10 08:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, what a lovely little essay! You put into words something that's really fundamental to the fandom experience - those moments are what I live for, you know? They're what make me fall deeply, madly in love with a relationship.

I'm trying to think of some examples... I would say Brian and Justin's reunion in QaF 308 would qualify (as does the prom, totally, as you said). My current OTP is Kara/Lee from BSG, and there are so many moments that just make me realize how deeply they love each other, even though initially it's not romantic, it's just so... deep. A great example is when they reunite after she thought he was dead - the entire conversation is charged with their suppressed, pure elation at seeing each other again, and you can't help but see how deeply they care about each other. *happy sigh* It's moments like those that I can watch 80 zillion times and never tire of them. I would disagree about Supernatural, to a certain extent, because I think at some points (especially recently) it's quite chock full of emo porn. Such as in Shadows... well, about 5 times throughout the episode, but specifically in the hotel room when Dean admits that the one thing he wants is for Sam to stick around. Say it with me - awwwww.

In short, I agree! A lot! ^_^

[identity profile] lcsbanana.livejournal.com 2006-04-11 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)
yes! oh, I've been using the phrase 'emoporn' for ages, because emotional porn is totally what it IS to me. i mean, emoporn can of course be beautiful and really art and thoughtful and subtle, and that also makes a whole other part of my brain happy, but when i go looking for emo porn it's to find something that i can emotionally get off on. i even have a (different) physical reaction. it's all very primal.

uh, nothing to add really, just waving my hands about in support of the phrasing.

Emo-Porn/Guy's-Guy Divides within Fandoms

[identity profile] nindulgence.livejournal.com 2006-04-12 08:34 am (UTC)(link)
What a useful term!--I've just added it to my interests list. It's such a handy distillation of my standard analogy when attempting to explain the slash aesthetic to male friends (i.e., that it's the inverse of the classic male fantasy of lesbian sex, designed to titillate a female audience with its emphasis on revelation of emotion rather than on physicality/mechanics...and that it exercises an equivalent freedom from strict verisimilitude as regards what a "real" man/woman would do in such circumstances).

The Emo Porn vs. Guy's-Guy Slash contrast that you draw here has got me thinking about fandoms as a whole, as it's a particularly fraught issue in Horatio Hornblower fandom. The title character, as he appeared in the books by C. S. Forester, was (outwardly, at least) very emotionally restrained; when the first set of adaptations was filmed, however, the writers included a "friend" character (Archie Kennedy, played by Jamie Bamber now of BSG) to whom some of HH's inner turmoil could be expressed onscreen...and JB had such chemistry with Ioan Gruffudd's HH that the writers kept bringing him back, and writing more and more intense emo-porny moments for the two (I refer you to the [livejournal.com profile] ship_manifesto essay (http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/36413.html#cutid3) by [livejournal.com profile] tanacawyr, in which she describes one climactic scene as achieving "[s]ome sort of scientifically defined maximum slash density." *g*) The emo-porn fans were delighted; the Forester estate protested and demanded that the HH character be portrayed in a matter more befitting the solitary Guy's-Guy of the books; and the writers retaliated by giving Archie the most outrageously emo-porny death imaginable, making it possible for emo fans to interpret all of HH's subsequent crusty Guy's-Guy behaviour as proceeding from broken-hearted mourning over his lost BFF.

One of the first great slash-fandom sources--Star Trek: TOS--was exquisitely emo-porn, in almost every aspect of its production: not just the writing and acting, but also the camera angles, the lighting, and especially the music were dedicated to wringing every possible drop of emotion out of every possible emo-porn scene. Subsequent ST series have been far more Guy's-Guy in their approach...but in trying to avoid the cheesiness of the original, they've also, more often than not, failed to achieve its intensity.

This is all very thought-provoking--thanks so much for posting!

~