Aquarium 4.18-19: "Kindred"

[hth]

I'm trying not to be online too terribly much because I'm in the middle of a big project that will last the rest of the month -- but I do want to talk just a little, wee bit about "Kindred" (and presumably the season finale, as well -- but that's it! Other than that -- work!)



Because honestly, I do want Teyla stories -- and hey, I'm even cool with horrible, soul-sucking, misery and despair stories, which you probably have already realized about me by now -- but seriously, please, stop. Please, God, stop doing this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I complained about not enough Rachel on-screen, it was very wrong of me. This arc is sapping my will to live. Make it go away, PTB. I promise I'll be good.

I honestly cannot fucking take any more evidence of how little the writers care about Teyla. Y'all, it's not that they can't write women. It's not that they're not good at it. It's not that they don't know how. I mean, it may be all those things, too, but principally? THEY DON'T WANT TO. They don't fucking care. They don't find her interesting or important in any way, and both of these episodes are soaked in their petulant boredom.

And you know what, while I'm here, I might as well call out fandom, too, because the reason I'm pissed off by "Kindred" is one of the same reasons I've 99% sworn off of SGA fanfiction -- I'm just so fucking sick of the creepy colonialism of a bunch of Western scientists and military crashing into a New World, and then nobody -- nobody, not the characters, not TPTB, not the fandom as a whole, nobody giving a good goddamn about the people who, Jesus fucking Christ, actually live there. The characters are importing bottled water and playing video games in their spare time, turning the Lost City of the Ancients into a fucking dorm. The writers are trying to fob off a half-baked "Athosians in jeopardy" plotline on us, without going to the enormous bother of ever giving us one scene with, well, Athosians, like how would having seen their faces sometime in the last two years possibly make the danger of losing them more resonant in any way? Meanwhile, back at the ranch, fans are always going on about how Pegasus Galaxy is, like, totally John and Rodney's home now -- they'll probably never go back to Earth, because they love it here so much!

Let's be really clear, here: they don't love Pegasus, and all the feigned concern they show for the galaxy when IOA threatens to recall them is total bullshit. What they love is Atlantis, and they love it because it's a big, empty tree fort with central air. If they gave one one-millionth of a fuck about anything in the galaxy, this whole arc wouldn't be about, "Teyla's people are gone, jeez, that's gotta be pretty hard on Teyla, sure hope Teyla finds those people of hers!" If they gave one one-millionth of a fuck, they would know some of those people, too. After three years, they'd be a little bit concerned about the fate of the neighbors -- not just because Teyla seems pretty down in the mouth about the whole thing, but because *they would just care.* Human beings can frequently suck, but they also tend to have a lot of empathy when people they know and have regular contact with and do business with and generally have a relationship with, even a casual one, are attacked. Our characters have treated this whole thing like a terribly unfortunate thing they read in the paper. They haven't given the slightest sign of being personally sad or scared or angry or moved in any way at all; it's all Teyla's problem, and their only reaction to it has been a certain moderate sympathy with Teyla.

A sympathy that, apparently, doesn't extend to doing her any fucking favors. Seriously, show? Going to a planet that is a perfectly safe trading hub and asking a couple of questions should be a complete non-starter, controversy-wise. So it's just a dream. So fucking what? I mean, yes, it would be nice if it had sunk into their skulls that Teyla has limited psychic powers that have inevitably turned out to be useful and correct in the past (dude, how many times are we going to play this game? I'd think after Echoes, someone might grok that when Teyla says she's seen a vision, *someone should take notes*). But okay, you know, I do understand the skepticism -- Teyla is sad, frightened, desperate, and frustrated over her own helplessness; it's exactly the kind of mindset that *might* lead to wish-fulfillment dreams where the answer falls into place, yay! It's not hard to see what psychological need the dreams of Kanaan telling her he's still waiting to be reunited with her might fill.

So what? Seriously, SO THE FUCK WHAT? You don't need to tell her that, even if it is true. If she tells you that this was her dream and she wants to go to this planet and find this thing, you know what you do? You put your vest and your boots on and you say *okay.* If the writers wanted to make such a fucking *issue* out of it, there are ways to do that -- you could have the planet she wants to go to be dangerous in some way, in the middle of a political upheval or some such thing, so that John and Sam have to kind of play the odds: is the worth of this supposed vision such that it's a risk they can afford to take? But if she just wants to go TO THE FUCKING MALL, you say okay. You don't talk down to her, you don't try to coax her out of it. You stay alert, sure, so that if this doesn't work out someone is there to help her handle her disappointment -- I mean, I'm going to just make a leap of faith and assume that Teyla has either friends or a new therapist who have been helping her all this time in the emotional support department, which is something else that would've been nice to see, but whatever, we at least know that Teyla is capable of making friends, even if they frequently explode or fall off buildings or are John Sheppard. (Though it's probably not a good sign that the first person she talks to about this is Rodney. Don't get me wrong, it's a hella sweet scene -- Rodney, trying to prepare Teyla's sprog for a life of scientific achievement! And he got it wrapped and everything! But honestly, she doesn't have *anybody* to confide in except...Rodney? I'm just saying, warning sign.)

If they'd just fucking *gone* the first time, then when Teyla wanted to go back, it would've made some sense and not been a totally dick move for them to say, "Uh, you know, Teyla, we really already did that. Are you sure you don't maybe want to...talk about your feelings, instead of obsessively going over the same fruitless ground again and again?" But they didn't just go the first time, and nobody ever really explained why they couldn't, except that it didn't seem worth the minimal effort of stepping through the Gate to them, whether or not it would make Teyla happy. It's bullshit, and I don't know what to make of Teyla's character, knowing that she's willing to take that kind of treatment from people who expect her to consider them friends. Who would put up with that? I mean, in the short term, maybe, because she does need help if she's going to make any headway here, so I could see choking it down -- but who would stay with these people, knowing that's how far beneath their own convenience they rank your deepest emotional needs?

And then, you know, of course Michael captures her and straps her to a table and tries to experiement on her while she begs him for mercy, because that never gets old. I don't know, I guess it's the kind of thing that either it bothers you or it doesn't, but I personally? Have seen enough female bodies laid out in ways that make them look extra-special vulnerable while they're menaced by psychopaths that want to invade the boundaries of their bodies to last me a lifetime. I've really seen it before. I'm really, really over it. It doesn't feel suspenseful to me, it just makes me feel sad and sick and tired, much more so than if the story was overtly about rape. Because at least then -- you know, there's a certain gravitas that attaches to the subject of rape, for the majority of your audience; it becomes a serious thing. What Kindred 2 does -- what a lot of televison does -- is to exploit all the fear and power dynamics of rape and then hand-wave it off by making it just this week's action-adventure encounter with the villain. And we'll all expect Teyla to shake it off afterwards, because hey, everybody gets kidnapped and injured and stuff like that around here. Just another day in outer space, indeed.

I had to crack out my Ethics Scorecard for these episodes, though, because I got a little confused. Trying to eliminate the Wraith is good. Check. Pinpointing the Wraith need to eat live humans as the specific thing about Wraithness that needs immediate correcting is totally reasonable. Check. The noble science of genetics can help us do the good work of creating a galaxy without Wraith. Check. The noble science of genetics isn't going to get very far without some bodies to experiement on, so it's fine to go get one of those. Check. But nobody wants to be turned into some kind of creepy hybrid creature who doesn't have their own brain or personality anymore and has lost all ties to friends and family from their past! That's...bad! *checks scorecard* Bad? Right -- totally bad! That's why we hate Michael! No -- wait -- that's why we.... Hang on, now.

I kid. I actually kind of like the huge moral muddle this whole plotline has turned into -- I think it's a perfectly good story way of having, you know, an actual theme of some kind, which in this case is that the best of intentions go awry, that the ways we rationalize protecting ourselves can completely fall apart when we're confronted with other people who want to protect themselves just as badly, that simple solutions are hardly ever as simple as they seem at first blush. Hell, Michael could be a perfectly good Iraq War metaphor if they put their backs into it a little: all Atlantis ever wanted to do was fight tyranny and defeat terror! And how long does it take you to figure out that you've made things vastly more complicated and are now in totally over your heads? It sometimes freaks me out a little that the writers don't appear to be aware of that connection, though -- that they seem to be operating solely out of "Michael's a psychopath! Look at all those crazy things he says and does!" and only very, very intermittently out of, "He's not always exactly wrong about the things he says" and "What he's doing now is kind of an exact parallel to what we did in s2." I mean, it really would be nice if I didn't have to sit around wondering whether the writers have noticed that stuff or not, but you go to fandom with the show you have.

Maybe if they'd stop calling him "Michael," he wouldn't be quite so cranky. That's not actually his name, you know. (No, seriously. I'm not sure the writers know. I think they may have forgotten.)

So, on a not entirely unrelated note, Carson is a clone now. I'm kind of baffled by this, because just this season, they set up a perfectly reasonable means of creating human simulacra that have all the memories and personality of the original person, and even wrote a fairly solid episode about how it's reductionist and wrong to view those simulacra as "fakes" or "copies." So I think I was not the only person who expected the return of "really real Carson, we honestly swear to God" would...have something to do with that. But...no, cloning? Cloning, really? You're going to stick with that? Ooookay.

I could point out the scientific problems, but seriously, you know what? You guys aren't fucking stupid; you know it doesn't work like that. And if you watch this show, you don't watch it for the science, so at this point, at the end of s4, it all seems fairly pointless. Sure, fine, cloning. They cloned his memories, too -- fine, great, whatever you say. I mean, it seems like if Michael can do that, then he already knows a lot more about genetics than Carson does, so I'm not sure why he'd really need-- But you know what? Okay! Cloning! Whatever!

I'm not sure whether this plotline benefits or suffers from being so similar to "This Mortal Coil," which is an episode that I don't think I posted about, but that I really did like. (Or if it benefits or suffers from its close proximity to "Adam," which is a recent Torchwood episode also about whether memories are *real* in and of themselves, even if you actually didn't experience the thing you remember.) I do think I was more prepped to buy into the fairly quick acceptance of this Carson as The Real Carson -- it might have taken me longer to think through all the implications if I hadn't already done so during "This Mortal Coil." (Well, or at least I would've had to cast my mind all the way back to s5 Buffy and recall the process of deciding that Dawn was Buffy's *real* sister because they shared the memories of each other, which were ipso facto memories as real as anyone else's memories of their experiences.) So sure, yeah. Cloning, y'know, doesn't work that way, but if it *did* work that way, there would be nothing inherently false about the subsequent Carsons it produced, any more than there was anything inherently false about the RepliLanteans. The issue that complicated "This Mortal Coil" was, what do you do with *two* of everyone, isn't that a lot fucking weird to expect people to live with comfortably? They even made the explicit distinction between the team's situation and Elizabeth's -- that Elizabeth was *the only Elizabeth there was,* just like Carson is now the only Carson there is. So there's groundwork in place, which is more than I can say for a lot of SGA's wonky plot twists.

As sort of a general viewer, I found myself just a little bugged by the pointlessness of Carson's return -- he's back! He...doesn't do much! Now he's gone again! Like, narratively speaking, why did that just happen? On the other hand, as someone who always loved Carson and has never really stopped being ticked off at the pointlessness of his removal from the show -- hey, if pointlessly is the only way they can bring him back, too, then so be it. At least this way I can hope that when they thaw him out in s5, it'll be during a decent episode.

By the way, I've noticed that every time I post something positive about Carson on lj, people have this weird tendency to comment in order to politely explain to me at some length why they think Carson, in fact, sucks balls. Dear fandom -- I know, okay? I know a lot of you can't bear him, and I've been told why, and I think there are some good reasons to begrudge his existence and some crappy ones, but ultimately, whatever. If you don't like him, it's because you just don't like him. What I'm saying is, I do like him, and it's not because I haven't heard enough manifestos on Why Carson In Fact Sucks Balls yet. Look, I like him for the exact same reason you like whichever frequently annoying and ethically problematic characters you like on SGA: because I just do, okay? I like Paul's energy and chemistry with the cast, I like how human Carson seems, I like the sweetness and humor and thoughtfulness he often displayed. For God's sake, if you're tempted to tell me in comments why you don't like Carson and aren't remotely happy he came back for an episode, please stop and ask yourself who would benefit from that, and in what way. If you can't think of anything, please consider just not bringing the subject up.

They hit all the character notes I would've hoped they would for Carson, so on that level, as a fan, I was really pleased. I liked his intital conversation with Rodney a lot -- how they managed to write it as this intense, difficult moment that it should be, having him learn all of this, but without being mawkish about it. It was a really great use of humor, not to undercut a scene, but to humanize it -- how else would you feel, learning that you'd been declared dead while you thought someone was trying to rescue you, except fustrated and a little retroactively scared? And Rodney's mixture of defensiveness and guilt is perfectly understandable, and so the way that they kind of bicker at each other over it just felt like a really smart choice, as opposed to brushing it all off or having a big, operatic Emotional Scene. I liked Carson's phobic response to the stasis pod, which kept using the stasis pod from feeling like a contrivance and made sending him into it kind of dramatic instead of just a moment like, "it's 10:50, so let's just table this and get back to it some other season, okay?" And I really liked Carson's *desire* to be part of the strike on Michael's compound, because I felt like it falls under the heading of believable change over time for a character: he's a harder person than he once was, and he's always been especially fond of Teyla, and he has a personal need to finally grab the chance to hit back at someone who held him captive, tormented him, blackmailed him, and engineered him to *die* if he slipped out of Michael's control. One of the things I've always liked about Carson is that it always seemed like the things that happened to Carson had an actual effect on him, and it felt right that this is the person he is at this stage of his life.

And I have to admit that I seized up a little bit in delight over the last scene, because again, they did pretty much everything I needed them to do with Carson's goodbyes. He never had much relationship with John, so I was glad that instead of manufacturing one, he connected to John as someone he could rely on to follow through on the job of rescuing Teyla -- in spite of all my issues with that plotline, of course the two of them would recognize their own brotherly protectiveness of her in each other. Obviously he had practically no connection to Sam, so again, sensible to use that moment to pick up that other significant thread of Carson's character, his connection to his family. (I haven't read much Kindred 2 commentary specifically because I'm just not in a place where I could respond productively to a resurgance of Momma's Boy Carson fanon; I don't even know what to do with anyone who thinks it's remotely strange to take this opportunity to write out your goodbyes to a beloved parent -- why the hell wouldn't you? Surely one of the many disadvantages to dying abruptly in an accident is exactly that issue of all the things you would have liked to say, and I think giving Carson a second chance to say those things was really nice.)

And oh, MAN, if nothing else that scene reminded me of how I want so, so much more Ronon/Carson fic than the world will ever provide me. I've always loved them togther -- the ever-popular odd-couple vibe of nebbishy science nerd and gunslinging superhero combined with how at heart, they're exactly the same big, giant softies. And I bet Carson's family was really sweet to Ronon, and his mom stuffed him full of food, and Ronon felt sort of shy around them because he's not really supposed to say anything about anything, but he went to Carson's mom and kind of looked at the floor and said that Carson saved his life -- three times -- and was a really nice person. And then Carson's mom probably hugged him, and Ronon never gets enough hugs, ever. Carson was just always one of the very, very few people on this show that I could easily see being as emotionally supportive and a good enough listener to be a really *helpful* boyfriend for Ronon to have around, and I'm not gonna lie, I made some very loud, very happy noises over their goodbye. Because they hugged! And Ronon's voice was all broken up, like he was about to cry! And Carson called him Big Man, OMG!!!!

(I want there to be a law -- it'll be like Snackey's or Godwin's -- it'll be Hth's Law, and it shall mandate that any time one tv character uses a canonical nickname for another, lo, a shipper fandom shall arise around them. Come on! Who's with me? It may take a little time to hammer out the details -- is one usage sufficient, or does it have to be an established pattern? Do diminutives of their actual name count? But come on! If you have grown men running around calling each other Chief or English or Big Man, there is no way in hell that's not grounds for slash! I realize this will keep the Lost fans pretty busy, but they'll just have to, er, take one for the team. Or several. Or something.)

And then of course the Rodney/Carson friendship always gets to me, and man, never more than Rodney putting on his Brave Toaster hat to promise Carson over and over, in an only very slightly desperately pleading way, that this was going to work great! Totally great! Like taking a nap! Yep, this is the perfect solution! Everybody wins! Things couldn't be more super -- honestly! God, poor Rodney. The fear that he could get a second chance with one of the few really trusted, intimate friends he's ever had and then not be able to preserve it, that he's fated to (metaphorically or literally) bury Carson over and over and over again -- that's just not something that *most people* are equipped to cope with, let alone poor, control-freaky Rodney McKay. It's a fantastic payoff to -- again, back to "This Mortal Coil," when he has that beautiful moment when he says "this is Carson all over again, I can't deal with this." And here it is, actually Carson all over again, and by God, he's *got* to deal with it, because the one thing that he knows would be worse would be to make this harder than it is on Carson. So he pulls up his socks and tries to deal, and it's as generous and brave an effort as it is transparent, and it's just awesome. David Hewlett, how are you so awesome?

So...I guess the Athosians are back? Yay, I suppose! It was nice of them to let Christopher out of the Wraith makeup for a day, and actually, Halling is kind of *hot* without the Qui-Gon hair. Hotter than Kanaan, actually -- or maybe he would be hot, too, if we ever saw him under marginally less creepy circumstances, like begging for help or being a zombie. (Is Kanaan still on the ship with Michael and Teyla? I think he must be, but it wasn't 100% clear to me.) That would be a pretty moving victory, if the show, as previously mentioned, ever thought much about the Athosians one way or another -- if they weren't just a plot device that was relevant only inasmuch as we sort of care about Teyla's feelings. Given that Teyla is still pretty much feeling like shit right now, they've kind of rendered saving the Athosians meaningless, which, accordingly, is exactly how the episode treats it. So at least they're consistent.

Only one episode left to go, and I'm sort of baffled from the spoilers as to...how it relates to any of this in any way. So I guess I'm not all that spoiled after all.

Comments

[zoniduck.livejournal.com]

I love reading your meta posts. I mean, sure I handwave all of this while I'm watching the show, but it's interesting to read the thinky thoughts afterwards. And then I get all retroactively indignant about the shoddy storytelling on the part of the writers, and then I wish that I could put this in front of them and say, see! This is how you're letting the fans down! And then I go read some fanfic to make it all better.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

Honestly, if I were Teyla, I could not stay with the Atlanteans after this. I could not forgive myself and I could not forgive them. She might not be able to go with the Athosians--they might not want her anymore--but she couldn't stay. I can hear this dialogue with John in my head, clear as a bell: "I should never have listened to you. I stayed here, safe and comfortable, while my people went through such horrors--" "Hey, we were looking for them!" "With no urgency until I was the one captured. And they suffered for it, beyond what you can imagine." Are there even enough Athosians left for them to survive on their own anymore?

So what? Seriously, SO THE FUCK WHAT? You don't need to tell her that, even if it is true. If she tells you that this was her dream and she wants to go to this planet and find this thing, you know what you do? You put your vest and your boots on and you say *okay.*

What's extra sad? Is that *this is what they actually did in "The Gift"*. John explicitly says to Ford that he doesn't think they'll find anything on the planet she wants to go to (where they ultimately find the Wraith lab), but that if that's what she needs to get back on her game, that's what they're going to do. Apparently, they respect her *less* after three years than they did when they didn't even know her that well!

I loved the Michael stuff when it was about the two of them being freaks and him wanting to change the galaxy. That stuff pings nicely for me, and it feeds into the broader moral issues you've flagged above. But I can't believe they went through with the experiment. That was the worst physical violation any major character has ever endured on this show (I have to put it a little above Ronon's tracker and John's draining because it changes what she is), and (unlike John and Ronon) the odds that she will ever be allowed any kind of compensating reassertion of her power are trivial. This plotline, supposed to be about Teyla and her leadership of her people, becomes an extended exercise in Teyla as helpless, useless female body and hostage and rape victim against a backdrop of Some Other Random Locals Suffering As Locals Do, and the writers don't even seem to realize--even while they're making Halling look like a camp survivor--how awful it is, or how you need to deal with this kind of material to make it anything other than cheap thrills.

*deep breath* I stopped watching so I wouldn't get to this place, but here I am anyway!

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed reading this; thanks for the interesting thoughts!

I may have cheered under my breath when Teyla pointedly told Sam that she didn't need permission to go through the Gate thank you very much.

They went through the Gate, grabbed the primest of prime real estate without a by your leave or thank you and then went around waking up the Wraith, interfering and just plain being very much like Victorian missionaries bringing enlightenment to the masses who were doing perfectly fine.

It's hard for me to remember just what exactly they're DOING there. Running away and fighting and making mucho enemies, yes, but what exactly is the colony FOR? It's not like we need space to expand and if we did, we have a galaxy of our own. We're not really good at using Ancient devices; they cause more trouble than they're worth.

I don't know why they don't just fly the whole damn city back to our galaxy, park it on a nearby planet and study it in peace.

And do not get me started on the bottled water. Every time I see it, I realize my teeth have gritted.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

And then I go read some fanfic to make it all better.

If you're familiar with a significant body of fanfic that actually bothers to deal with these sorts of issues, I wish you'd share! I'm not aware of much.

[tintros.livejournal.com]

This kind of discussion and thinking about a show is one thing I do so very much love about the internet. I don't get any of it irl. That being said...

I never much liked Teyla, not at all. I suppose part of it was that I saw her (along with Ronon) as the 'locals' that were supposed to be there to be the 'new Teal'c's of this show, and ho-hum look one's a warrior and ones a maternal figure, so I never much warmed to either.

That said, I came back to the show recently after a bit of a hiatus where I'd just watch SG1, and good gravy, it's criminal what they're doing to her character. Not the torture, even but the minimalization, the jumping-through-hoops-of-bad-plot, etc.

The whole Athosian plot has the feel (to me, I've no evidence of this) of a writer coming back to the 'room' after time away doing something else, and going 'what happened to the Athosians', 'um.. nothing?', 'Oh, well, let's write about that, then, as I don't know what you guys've been doing while I was away'...

[amalthia]

I'm convinced they changed writers at some point between season 1 and this season because seriously you're right Teyla had more respect in season 1 than she does now and I'm not sure what that says about the show but I kind of have to handwave everything just to watch SGA. The squee is offically gone. :(

[zoniduck.livejournal.com]

Nothing specific to these issues, unfortunately. I was speaking about Hth's meta posts and fanfic in general.

[anatsuno.livejournal.com]

What she said!

[clare-nce.livejournal.com]

As a non fan of Carson I humbly ask for your pity not your anger. This ep almost made me wish I liked the character.

At least Carson fans got an episode with a favourite character, they feared they'd never see again, getting screen time.

Non fans had to put up with a episode ending with Teyla meekly heading off with Micheal, other blatant plot devices and all the other issues you mention - without that highlight.

I also hope that the next episode they decide to bring Carson back in is a good one and will thus please everyone. But seeing as they're probably not purposely writing bad episodes/storylines there's no guarentee.

[utterfrivolity.livejournal.com]

I see that Mr. Mallozzi has responded to your post with his usual intelligent consideration of the issues presented.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

You're going to post the part about the problems in the comments on Joe Mallozzi's blog, right?

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad I can shed a different light on the episodes, without totally ruining all your fun! *g*

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

and the writers don't even seem to realize--even while they're making Halling look like a camp survivor--how awful it is, or how you need to deal with this kind of material to make it anything other than cheap thrills.

Well, that's exactly the thing. This arc could be done well, but if you took it seriously, it would be a really hard story -- something brutal and painful with enduring fallout, for Teyla and the Athosians. But they don't take it seriously; they'll just wrap things up haphazardly and go on to the next adventure.

I'm fairly sure that however far his experiment progresses, he's not actually going to end up changing Teyla's DNA. What I don't know, however, is whether TPTB at this show have the utter audacity to kill a main character's unborn child. Only time will tell.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

Yeah, squee isn't much a part of my SGA life these days. I still love the show in some ways and continue to be interested in what they do, obviously. Actually, I really only suffer through these metaplot episodes because I continue to enjoy the one-offs, where the writers just let them get caught in volcanos or invaded by energy creatures and try not to get themselves killed. The less an SGA episode is attempting to do, the better the chances it'll come off well. It's these fucking arcs that kill me.

[kormantic.livejournal.com]

They don't find her interesting or important in any way, and both of these episodes are soaked in their petulant boredom.

I really wish I could argue with you about this.

Why does every "pregnant" storyline devolve into kidnapping, torture and (I strongly suspect this will be the case in SGA as well) the inevitable kidnapping of the newborn?

It would have been nice to see her just have the kid and then go back to work, like generations of Athosians and working moms everywhere, have always done.

Oh, SGA.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I think that's a really insightful thing: the Atlantis expedition has officially Lost the Mission. What *are* they bringing back to Earth that's of any help or significance? What's ultimately at stake? For a long time now, it feels like we're treading water, just trying to keep things from being a lot worse, and never dealing with any of the higher aspirations that we presumably came in with, about exploration and knowledge and discovery. When do we do any of *that* anymore?

[zoniduck.livejournal.com]

Wow. And while I flippantly commented about how I'd like to put this in front of the writers, I'm pretty horrified that someone actually went ahead and did so (http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/march-4-2008-lowlifes-scripts-and-those-infernal-colored-pages/#comments), presumably without your permission. Lovely. And of course JM responded in today's post.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I was pretty dismissive of her originally for the same reasons -- yeah, of course she's sort of stoic and Native and martial arts-y, she's the new Teal'c iteration. It's really the actress that changed my mind about Teyla: I just think Luttrell plays her with this really interesting intelligence and gravitas that makes her feel like a person and not a character slot -- and like a person it would really be cool to know! So, yeah, watching her consistently be ignored except when they want to do a Teyla Plot (but they only want to put in enough effort to do a half-assed job of it) is pretty trying.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

Hey, I really have very little anger! *g* And I totally see what you're saying -- the Carson bits were the only part I found enjoyable, so I can totally see that if you didn't dig those, this episode must have been a miserable slog. My condolences!

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

God almighty. You know, in general I find that no time is a good time to listen to things that Mallozzi says. So this installment is pretty much more of the same for me.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I'm really, really not. The more I think about engaging with Mallozzi on any level, the less appealing it sounds. He's not interested in discussion; he's interested in proving his intellectual superiority to his fans. That's what he's always cared about, that's what he cares about now, and I don't feel any urge to play that game with him at all.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

Well, as we learned on Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, pregnancy-in-jeopardy is a ratings draw. These aren't really writers who are going to pass up a cheap shock tactic in favor of realistic and empowering depictions of women having agency and leading successful lives. That's just not the kind of drama that appeals to them, unfortunately. They want the explosions, lit and fig.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I tend to think they won't, just because even this pack of writers know you couldn't hand-wave that away (the way they are doubtless going to handle the Athosians: "Oh, Halling took them back to New Athos. We gave them some aspirin, I'm sure they'll recover from their concentration-camp experience in no time at all!"). Although when I think about the inconvenience of a baby in S5, I waver...

The most satisfying thing about writing a little more SGA fic at this late date was getting to let Michael call John out about his name. I wasn't even planning on it, but apparently my subconscious has been pissed on his behalf about it for a long time and seized its chance.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

And who is paying for it? And why, back on a largely clueless Earth, is no one noticing the vast expenditure? There are five or so major governments in the know; they all have to account to their tax payers and I really don't see something this huge getting covered up for long. The Cheyenne Mountain was one thing; it was small and contained, but when you have huge space ships floating around and ...oh, why am I trying to make it make sense?

[clare-nce.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your sympathy. :)

And congratulations on getting misundestood in JM's blog. My favourite bit is how the bottled water comment goes over his head.

He seems to have no idea what having those little bottles of water on Atlantis actually means - and then when that's coupled with 'Sunday' where the girl is unable to get a pair of shoes for exercising really makes you wonder.

[cofax7]

They won't kill the baby: no American-produced television show ever kills the baby.

My speculation is that the baby will be conveniently fostered out to an Athosian family because Teyla will feel obliged to stay in Atlantis and Atlantis will be considered "too dangerous" for a baby. Even though really the entire Pegasus galaxy is too dangerous, if Michael can steal an entire village of Athosians and get no more than a couple of grunts from the Atlanteans on the issue.

The other option is the baby is shelved in Atlantis with some sort of caretaker and we see him once in a while.

The third option is that they age him up magically -- via Michael -- and he becomes a recurring character, a la Adria, Connor, etc. As I think about it, this may well be the most likely method: Michael steals the kid, he becomes the Quest Object for S5, is artificially aged, and Stockholmed into opposition to his mom and the Atlanteans. Thus making the storyline even more not about Teyla but about the magical fruit of her womb. Woot. ::gags pre-emptively::

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

Option #4: with his Magic Genes, the baby is TOO VALUABLE and must go into super-sekrit-double-dog hiding with Kanaan/Halling/whoever. I actually like this option, because it gets rid of both Junior and the wet-dishrag-known-as-Kanaan without obliging Teyla to make ritual obesiances in the direction of caretaking.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

That's what they did to Sha're's baby, so, um, history vindicates you there.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

It was more rhetorical.

He's totally an ass.

And I saw what he wrote to you. *spits on him*

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

And I bet Carson's family was really sweet to Ronon, and his mom stuffed him full of food, and Ronon felt sort of shy around them because he's not really supposed to say anything about anything, but he went to Carson's mom and kind of looked at the floor and said that Carson saved his life -- three times -- and was a really nice person. And then Carson's mom probably hugged him, and Ronon never gets enough hugs, ever.

Okay, the rest of your post makes me nod my head in agreement and just get angry all over again about the huge issues I have with the show lately (read: always), but the above? That made me happy. That made me tear up just a little and I think I may have to friend you. I need someone on my flist who does more talking about this show beyond "OMG the Rodney and John HoYay Hour!". /bitter

Oh well, at least there's a new SG-1 movie this week.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Reading through this, will probably read it again. Thank you for the breakdown because quite frankly I really needed to know why things were rubbing me the wrong way by the time the season ended.

Okay, I take it back, I was already het up about the fact that, as usual, the writers totally dropped the ball with the team as a whole (despite the extra John/Rodney, I maintain that even they are less than they were at the very beginning of SGA) and Teyla in particular but seeing how you put it all together makes me alternately sad and angry. Like, I knew all of this but seeing it written down...dammit.

I was hoping, when Rodney showed up as a holo, that he was going to say something along the lines of "After we lost you John, we got lucky and found Teyla. I even helped deliver the baby." Or, "It was close, we nearly lost her, Michael still tried to put his plan in effect but we beat him back to the stone age." That would have been original and yeah, totally team.

And what I don't get, amongst all the John/Rodney squee, is how no one really picks up on the fact that in giving so much J/R, the team as a whole gets short shrift, that the individual stories that feed into the whole get diminished.

Teal'c, as alien as he was, got to see his people freed. Even though Earth helped (when it suited them), the Jaffa got the chance to fight for what they wanted. What would SGA look like if the Atlanteans took it in their heads to help people fight back against the Wraith? Screw Earth. I'm tired of everything coming down to it being about Earth's benefit. Help the folks in Pegasus get it together - because if that little taste of Woolsey that we saw is part of the future, then it's not worth it.

I'll still write in the universe because there's still stories I want to tell in it but at this point, I won't be rushing home on Friday nights to catch the show. I can record it and watch it later but my investment won't be that high as far as the source material goes.

[eyra.livejournal.com]

They don't fucking care. They don't find her [Teyla] interesting or important in any way...I'm just so fucking sick of the creepy colonialism of a bunch of Western scientists and military crashing into a New World, and then nobody -- nobody, not the characters, not TPTB, not the fandom as a whole, nobody giving a good goddamn about the people who, Jesus fucking Christ, actually live there.

This is where you had me. From here you could have said that SciFi has released spoilers saying that the first half of season five will see all the major characters de-aged and amnesiac and that you love this idea to pieces, and I still would have nodded and hmmed and went, yes, that, exactly!

The thing is, I didn't expect to like Teyla. I pretty much expected a "token alien character," who of course would have mad (primitive) fighting skills and be the Noble Warrior Princess and have fantastic breasts. Complete with the Native Costume that must show them off. And there is all that, but there's more, too. And as it turned out, I liked her. She is interesting and grave and thoughtful and intelligent and has this lovely way of expressing humor, and this all makes it less of a "token" feel and more of a "yay Teyla!" feel when she beats people up. But I'm sure it's the actress, and not the writers. Most of the time they don't seem to know what to do with Teyla.

Teyla began as the one character among the main cast meant to represent the entire galaxy, which is ridiculous in and of itself, but they could have tried harder, you know? She and Ronon and the Pegasus Galaxy deserve creators who give a shit.

And then there is this:

they don't love Pegasus...What they love is Atlantis, and they love it because it's a big, empty tree fort with central air.

I never thought about it like that before, but I think it's part of the many reasons that I am slowly getting more uncomfortable with this show. So I'm glad you've articulated it. Because when I think about it, I think about this incredible adventure that's become more essential than that, become absolutely necessary to all of them, somehow gotten under their skins. But that's not really what's there - that's there when it's convenient (when you need a Save Atlantis! Bad IOA! plot), but it's just not there as a constant (which is why it's gone when Teyla's people disappear. Were they even looking for them?)

Why don't they keep trading (presuming they did before they resumed contact; I don't remember, but they must have - unless they'd really brought enough supplies?) They pretend to trade, but they're always looking for technology, and they're still, as you say, getting bottled water from home - and that always killed me. A planet primarily ocean, and they are the premier scientists of Earth, and - none of them could have figured out a way to get a viable desalinized tank of drinking water?

Then really, given how much the Daedalus is needed in the Milky Way, and how freaking high the costs are both for the ship and for activating the Midway gates - does Atlantis really need copies of Jaws that badly? They should be getting involved in the various cultures of Pegasus.

Sometimes it just blows my mind, how little they do with their awesome premise.

[klangley56.livejournal.com]

I surfed over here by way of Metafandom, and also checked out the quotes from her on Mallozzi's blog and his response. A friend of mine who is not on LJ watches SGA, so I pointed her to the above. She wrote me back with (what I thought were) some interesting comments, and she said I could pass them along:

>>My reaction is that the fan commenting (I don't agree with all her points, but even the ones I don't agree with, she supports pretty decently so I know why she supports them) is perceptive, sensitive (but not a pushover, she seems to suffer fools not the least bit gladly) and intelligent, not to mention literate (while Mallozzi is superficial, and dismissively blithe), and she is simply and needlessly torturing herself by trying to apply her yardstick to SGA or the TPTB behind it. They haven't got the brains or the heart to get her points, let alone create something that'll come up to her expectations. If she's going to stick with SGA, she's pretty much stuck with having to rant and rave. I tried to roll with the thing for quite a while, but once past "Miller's Crossing" I'm at the "whatever" stage. Let me see some pretty Ronon, let me see him move around, beat a few folks, blow away a few others, possibly smile once or twice and shake back his hair -- hey, I'm happy. With SGA, I have discovered the priceless art of small expectations. Suzan>>

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's sort of become, will Teyla's Baby be Sha're's Baby All Over Again or Vala's Baby All Over Again? There's that thin tendril of hope that they'll come up with something new, but I wouldn't bet the house on it or anything.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I just assumed it was filed under Very Secret Important Defense Project: Classified! Aren't there a lot of DoD expenditures that we know are being made, but we don't know exactly what for?

On the other hand, maybe it's all tucked away in the budget in secret, clever ways. Those five thousand dollar staplers? Really ninety-seven cents in bulk from Sam's Club.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it made you happy! It's not really my only goal in life to make people angrier and more depressed about this show *g* -- I'm actually a fan of getting people to notice the little happy-making things, as well!

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I'll still write in the universe because there's still stories I want to tell in it but at this point, I won't be rushing home on Friday nights to catch the show. I can record it and watch it later but my investment won't be that high as far as the source material goes.

That's sort of my approach -- except that I really do still rush home for it! I just am aware that the show I'm looking forward to seeing is going to be messy and unsatisfying in some ways, and that what I'm really rushing home to do is to crack it open and mine it for the juicy potentialities.

But also, it would be great if it were consistently more fun to watch! Sometimes it's *hella* fun to watch, and sometimes it's like running meat forks under my fingernails. I'll still do it, because of my investment in the characters and the universe, but if it *weren't* sometimes sheerly torturous -- that would be awesome! *g*

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

Teyla began as the one character among the main cast meant to represent the entire galaxy, which is ridiculous in and of itself, but they could have tried harder, you know? She and Ronon and the Pegasus Galaxy deserve creators who give a shit.

That's more than anything else the source of my frustration. I can handle bad pseudoscience and leaps of silly coincidence and plots falling together oh-so-conveniently because there has to be a plot, and I can even handle how the characters don't always behave in ways that reflect any kind of sane human psychology. But there's just so much of the show that it feels like the creators believe is beneath their attention, and something about that approach to your own characters and your own world just shocks and sickens me. I just don't understand it.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

You know, I can see why someone would think that, if these last few episode reviews were all they've seen of my SGA involvement. *g* The thing is, my expectations aren't all that high, and SGA, while being bargain-basement in many ways, often makes me very happy! I said in my end-of-season recap that there are always five episodes a year that I genuinely think make good tv, and more episodes than that where I find myself liking them in spite of knowing better.

I think the end of this season has been a low point for the show, both creatively and ethically, and the reason I feel the need to say so isn't that I expect TPTB to listen and learn, but just because I think for me and some other people, there's just an inherent fury building up at the degredation of some of the characters and elements of the SGA universe that we've come to care about *because* of the show, and that anger and sense of betrayal needs an outlet of some kind.

I am going to stick with SGA -- and I realize that means there will be ranting and raving in my future! That's the price of admission for me, and I don't have a problem with that. But the thing is that, unlike your friend and a lot of other people I've heard from, I'm not really at "whatever." Some parts of the show make me absolutely furious, but some parts make me squee insanely, and some parts I think are intentionally or unintentionally hilarious and even intriguing. I care a lot about this show, and while I don't think I have high expectations, I think the pain that their worst work causes me is the inevitable trade-off for the pure, euphoric fannish joy that their best work causes me. I wouldn't give that up for causal viewership, not for any price.

hi.

[quasiradiant.livejournal.com]

so i know there was all kinds of wank about this. but i wanted to say: THANK GOD SOMEBODY FINALLY PUT IT INTO WORDS.

my disgust in re: their treatment of teyla started a long time ago and i've never had words half this good to describe them.

also, we live in the same town and i get a great deal of pleasure knowing durham is a nexus of SMARTS.

[ainsley.livejournal.com]

I had forgotten exactly how much I loathe that man until I read his response.

THANKS!

[kirinin.livejournal.com]

Thanks a lot, Hth. You really articulated a lot of what I've been having issues with in regards to the show. Unlike you, I'm close to reaching my limit.

I picked up SGA really quickly, ran through the seasons on a tide of squee, but the further I got through season four, the more disgusted I became. I think it's the quickest I've fallen out of love with a show, ever... and this was primarily due to the treatment of Teyla. I honestly don't know whether I'll watch Season 5 or not.

Maybe Rachel is an author in her own right? *Somebody's* got to care about that character other than us...

-K

[ariadne83]

I *do not* understand why Teyla wasted time telling Carson to shoot while Michael was uselessly expositioning. IMHO, that scene should have progressed to Teyla figuring out what Michael was saying before he finished, stealing the gun from Carson and shooing Michael in the face - thus rescuing her own damn self, and the rest of the Athosians to boot.