![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Here's the question I have. Why is all of fandom so convinced that Carson has some kind of totally sick, maladjusted obsession with his mother? I'm curious.
My memory is perhaps not what it used to be, but here's what I recall knowing about Carson and his mom:
1) In "Rising," we see them smiling lovingly at each other as she serves him dinner. This does not seem terribly odd to me, given that he knows he may never see her again and she must at least know he's going incommunicado for a while. It seems normal enough to me, for close relatives who are enjoying their last moments together before being apart indefinitely.
2) In "Letters to Pegasus," Ford sits him down with a camera and tells him it's his turn to record a message. ACTUAL DIALOGUE:
Carson: What shall I say?
Ford: Uh, "I miss you?" "I wish you were here?"
Carson: I wish who was here?
Ford: I don't know, who do you wish was here?
Carson: Nobody! I wish *I* wasn't bloody here!
Ford: Doc, I got a lot of people I gotta get through.
Carson: All right. Uh...I suppose I could say hello to my mother.
I'm saying, for someone who's obsessed with her, it doesn't seem to occur very quickly to him that he should seize this one last opportunity to contact her. Maybe he's only pretending not to be thinking about her from the very beginning, but what reason would he have to do that?
3) I'm not going to transcribe the whole thing, but in a nutshell, Carson tries to record a rather bland, greeting-card kind of message, Ford rags on him for it, and he bursts out that he doesn't want to "go all emotional" and get her upset. He calls her "as sweet a soul as you'd ever meet" and a few other affectionate things and seems to feel responsible for her. When Ford prods him to be more emotional, he loses it, says "I miss you terribly," and starts to cry. I imagine this is where people are getting the mama's boy thing, and I wouldn't necessarily dispute that Carson is a mama's boy. He appears to be her only child, and she his only parent. She's pretty old; he believes her health isn't great; he's not likely to see her again. I don't know that it's so strange that he feels protective of her or that he's in a sentimental mood about her. I'm not saying he's not being a little intense about her; I'm just saying it doesn't strike me as pathological. I'd be a lot more of a mess if I were taping a message for one of my parents under equivalent circumstances.
4) In the second take, once he's gotten control of his fear (remember, they all think they're in their last week of life during this episode), he records a message reassuring her and giving her medical advice. He ends with "And Mum? I do love you," in a sweetly awkward way that implies to me that he doesn't come out and say that very often. Carson's probably one of those guys who says things like "Keep up with your prescription" and intends them to be understood as meaning "I love you."
I feel vaguely as if I may be forgetting another reference to Carson's mother, so if I am, feel free to remind me. But just looking at these brief scenes, and factoring in the immense loneliness everyone in Atlantis must feel at that point, a year away from any contact with their loved ones and under incomprehensible stress, he seems *appropriately* emotional about an old woman he won't be able to take care of ever again.
The thing that wigs me out, I guess, is that he's the only character we see in "Letters from Pegasus" who actually cries, instead of bearing his pain in a noble and manly way, and I wonder if the readiness of fans to label his feelings as disturbed or badly socialized in some way comes from that. Are we really still so John Wayne in this culture that we don't know how to deal with a person who's afraid for his life, who loves and misses his own mother, who's stressed and helpless and feels like a failure, and responds by crying? Are we so conditioned by the expectations of television, where heroes bear up and soldier through, that we see someone reacting to genuine and legitimate like a real person would and immediately start asking ourselves what's wrong with him? Or is this just one of those weird fandom groupthink situations, where somebody said it once and everyone assumed that if it was said, it has to be true? Or are my standards for "weird about his mom" just really, really high after having gotten used to pop fandom, where *everyone* is weird about his mom?
ETA: Somehow, this turned into a big, honking referendum on whether or not Carson is a dick. I mean, carry on, say whatever it is you need to say, but I would just like to stress that I wrote this particular post neither to praise nor to bury Carson. My feelings about his characterization overall and/or "his" medical ethics (quotation marks because it's not like he's cooking this shit up under the floorboards where all the other deeply ethical characters on the show haven't yet noticed it) are a whole different post, which will probably not be forthcoming any time soon.
My memory is perhaps not what it used to be, but here's what I recall knowing about Carson and his mom:
1) In "Rising," we see them smiling lovingly at each other as she serves him dinner. This does not seem terribly odd to me, given that he knows he may never see her again and she must at least know he's going incommunicado for a while. It seems normal enough to me, for close relatives who are enjoying their last moments together before being apart indefinitely.
2) In "Letters to Pegasus," Ford sits him down with a camera and tells him it's his turn to record a message. ACTUAL DIALOGUE:
Carson: What shall I say?
Ford: Uh, "I miss you?" "I wish you were here?"
Carson: I wish who was here?
Ford: I don't know, who do you wish was here?
Carson: Nobody! I wish *I* wasn't bloody here!
Ford: Doc, I got a lot of people I gotta get through.
Carson: All right. Uh...I suppose I could say hello to my mother.
I'm saying, for someone who's obsessed with her, it doesn't seem to occur very quickly to him that he should seize this one last opportunity to contact her. Maybe he's only pretending not to be thinking about her from the very beginning, but what reason would he have to do that?
3) I'm not going to transcribe the whole thing, but in a nutshell, Carson tries to record a rather bland, greeting-card kind of message, Ford rags on him for it, and he bursts out that he doesn't want to "go all emotional" and get her upset. He calls her "as sweet a soul as you'd ever meet" and a few other affectionate things and seems to feel responsible for her. When Ford prods him to be more emotional, he loses it, says "I miss you terribly," and starts to cry. I imagine this is where people are getting the mama's boy thing, and I wouldn't necessarily dispute that Carson is a mama's boy. He appears to be her only child, and she his only parent. She's pretty old; he believes her health isn't great; he's not likely to see her again. I don't know that it's so strange that he feels protective of her or that he's in a sentimental mood about her. I'm not saying he's not being a little intense about her; I'm just saying it doesn't strike me as pathological. I'd be a lot more of a mess if I were taping a message for one of my parents under equivalent circumstances.
4) In the second take, once he's gotten control of his fear (remember, they all think they're in their last week of life during this episode), he records a message reassuring her and giving her medical advice. He ends with "And Mum? I do love you," in a sweetly awkward way that implies to me that he doesn't come out and say that very often. Carson's probably one of those guys who says things like "Keep up with your prescription" and intends them to be understood as meaning "I love you."
I feel vaguely as if I may be forgetting another reference to Carson's mother, so if I am, feel free to remind me. But just looking at these brief scenes, and factoring in the immense loneliness everyone in Atlantis must feel at that point, a year away from any contact with their loved ones and under incomprehensible stress, he seems *appropriately* emotional about an old woman he won't be able to take care of ever again.
The thing that wigs me out, I guess, is that he's the only character we see in "Letters from Pegasus" who actually cries, instead of bearing his pain in a noble and manly way, and I wonder if the readiness of fans to label his feelings as disturbed or badly socialized in some way comes from that. Are we really still so John Wayne in this culture that we don't know how to deal with a person who's afraid for his life, who loves and misses his own mother, who's stressed and helpless and feels like a failure, and responds by crying? Are we so conditioned by the expectations of television, where heroes bear up and soldier through, that we see someone reacting to genuine and legitimate like a real person would and immediately start asking ourselves what's wrong with him? Or is this just one of those weird fandom groupthink situations, where somebody said it once and everyone assumed that if it was said, it has to be true? Or are my standards for "weird about his mom" just really, really high after having gotten used to pop fandom, where *everyone* is weird about his mom?
ETA: Somehow, this turned into a big, honking referendum on whether or not Carson is a dick. I mean, carry on, say whatever it is you need to say, but I would just like to stress that I wrote this particular post neither to praise nor to bury Carson. My feelings about his characterization overall and/or "his" medical ethics (quotation marks because it's not like he's cooking this shit up under the floorboards where all the other deeply ethical characters on the show haven't yet noticed it) are a whole different post, which will probably not be forthcoming any time soon.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-07-13 11:27 pm (UTC)From:What I don't like is his complete lack of medical ethics. He scares me in his ability to experiment on people so... unthinkingly.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-14 04:49 am (UTC)From:Elizabeth on the other hand should have been extremely concerned with the larger implications of what he proposed to do, and the fact that she okay-ed the experiment is what makes me uncomfortable. And as a side note: since the lines of communication are open with earth did SGC approve the test as well?
After the experiment with Michael failed, Carson seemed honestly reluctant to continue, but Weir and Sheppard were determined to make it work. If any ones ethics should be in question it's theirs, they were not looking to "save" the wraith, they just wanted to save themselves.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-14 07:47 am (UTC)From:To pursue this, Carson, a doctor whose life calling it is to heal, forced this "cure" on a Wraith prisoner. That's a far cry from offering to help a wounded Wraith, as he did in "Duet".
As Michael said, it wasn't about helping the Wraith; it was about helping humans.
It may be necessary for self-defense, but that doesn't make it noble.
(Disclaimer: I don't love the Wraith, but I do wish the show dealt with the moral ethics of this particular form of genocide. Also wish that the Wraith were 3-dimensional beings intead of cardboard cutout villains.)
Sorry. Didn't mean to rant and veer off topic.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-14 07:41 pm (UTC)From:Does that give Atlantis the right to do what they do? It's hard to make an argument that it does; medically altering someone against their will is objectively problematic, no matter what your intentions are. But I think Carson genuinely believed it would be better for the Wraith to liberate them than to eradicate them...and in a way, wouldn't it? Isn't there at least some merit to the idea that if they hadn't thrown their energies into developing the retrovirus, Atlantis would only have been dedicating its resources to finding a way to massacre the Wraith outright in self-defense, and isn't there *something* to the idea that it's more noble to leave them with lives of some kind, and freedom and a future, than it is to exterminate a sentient race? I mean, I don't think you have to go too far off the beaten path to see why someone who wanted to do the right thing might entertain the idea that the retrovirus was the lesser of two evils.
Was it? If it had worked, I don't know. Given that it doesn't work, it becomes functionally indefensible. But if it had worked? I truly don't know.
I do wish the show dealt with the moral ethics of this particular form of genocide. Also wish that the Wraith were 3-dimensional beings intead of cardboard cutout villains
That would've been nice. The whole debate is massively complicated by the fact that the Wraith, as we've received them from TPTB, *are* so flat and cartoony. I find myself unable to make human rights arguments without feeling like a tool, because human rights apply to, well, humans. And while some aliens seem similar enough that it's a no-brainer to apply the same standards, the Wraith just don't. They're presented as -- well, not even predators, because there's nothing personal with a predator. The Wraith really seem to sadistically enjoy lording it over humans; they don't just need to eat people, they get off on knowing they can, which foils the humans/cows analogy that some people want to apply. Also, they do know we're sentient; they can speak to us, they make deals with us. They don't think we're animals in the sense that humans use that term; they just think we're weak, in the sense that conquerors use that term. If a species like that existed, would we really, seriously be suggesting that they deserve to be treated just like humans? And yet, part of us wants to, because as science fiction fans, we're exactly the kind of people whose general impulse is to find alien races interesting and likeable. Our own checkered history on Earth also makes us reluctant to say "well, they're not human like us" because of how often that's been said about people who were, in fact, human exactly like us; it feels like a villainous thing to say, even though this time they aren't human like us. So experience and temperament urges us to treat the Wraith as opponents in a war, and yet the nature of this fictional universe gives us no good reason to treat them as anything except monsters.
I don't know, maybe this is the most interesting thematic element they've ever introduced: how unlike us *would* an alien species have to be to fully justify our "dehumanization" of them? Is this far enough? How about this? Is there ever a point at which it's okay not to feel anything for them?
no subject
Date: 2006-07-14 08:20 pm (UTC)From:He might believe it, but I'd love to be presented with Wraith who agree. Maybe I'm just arguing semantics because I'm not saying there's no justification for it. I don't expect the humans to sacrifice themselves, if they can fight.
But I do object to this idea of it being a cure or 'for their own good'. If it's done against the Wraith's will, it's an assault, just as it would be if a doctor forced surgery or medication on an unwilling patient. There are plenty of human conditions that, if we altered them, might make our lives easier (race, gender, sexuality, weight, height.) No matter how difficutl they make our lives, they're not illnesses.
But the Wraith, so far as we've seen, are all Evil. The one Wraith (the female who was raised by a human) went 'bad'. That makes it hard to argue for them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it. After all, in the same universe, on SG-1, we've encountered several species who are vaguely humanoid, but not human and some who were sentient but not remotely human. And they did once on SGA (Homecoming?) In this universe, they can't think solely in terms of human rights any more than it's okay for the Wraith to dismiss our rights to life.
I think my problem, with this aspect of the show, is that I can't help but draw parallels to Battlestar Galactica's Cylons. Most of the time, I can accept that they're different shows with different goals. I would have loved to have seen the humans at least try to offer the retro-virus as a peaceful compromise before weaponizing it. But it's too late for that unless they come up with something else that might work.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-15 12:17 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2006-07-15 04:20 am (UTC)From:If the Wraith were less cartoon evilly, it would be easier to argue that they deserve human rights. Surely some of them must have qualms? Must wish they could eat someone who isn't alive?
It touches a personal issue for me because I used to work in native title and so I spent a lot of time looking at records where people assume that others aren't deserving of human rights, that they are beneath humanity and that the only way to deal with them is to completely rework their whole society by taking their kids away and rearing them the right way.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-14 06:37 pm (UTC)From:If I were going to get all het up about somebody's ethics in re: the Wraith on this show, it would absolutely be Sheppard's. He seems genuinely sadistic when it comes to them -- he doesn't just want them to stop eating people, he wants them to *suffer* for what they've done, and he's very willing to view them as interchangeable. There aren't individual Wraith, there are all Wraith, and all Wraith are therefore guilty of the crimes of all Wraith. So anyone you get your hands on deserves whatever you do to them, by definition. And Sheppard *loves* getting his hands on one of them.
Now, the complicating factor is, he's not necessarily wrong. All Wraith *are* guilty; we don't have to prove they've killed, because their mere existence as living Wraith is proof of it. And how much the concept of "individuals" even applies to them is up for grabs, versus how much do they think like hive insects; we just don't know. And as Sheppard himself has mentioned, how much would we even be having this conversation if Atlantis simply invented something that would make Wraith explode? Where's our moral high ground, if we're that much more comfortable with murdering them than we are with requiring them to continue their existence in a body that eats fruit roll-ups instead of human life force?
Still, even while admitting that the whole thing is very complicated, it's Sheppard who freaks me out, because like I said, he gives off this sense of taking delight in seeing his enemies suffer that, by my moral compass (for whatever that's worth), is vastly more unethical than any of the plot decisions we've seen. Sheppard feels better when he can deal back all the anger and fear he has onto someone else; it suits his sense of justice and it makes him feel back in control. As far as I'm concerned, that's not a bad decision, that's a rot inside somebody's soul, and a kind of finding pleasure in pain that I haven't seen from anyone else on Atlantis.
Of course, everyone has their flaws. I like Sheppard partially because I think he has that darkness in him, and I'm a sucker for characters like that; they keep me off-balance in a way that I find compelling. They don't ever let me completely embrace them or completely dislike them, and I love being in that place of tension. I'm in a place of tension with Carson, too, in many ways -- I just think it's interesting that fandom as a whole sees very little wrong with Sheppard that isn't forgiveable, but seems unable to forgive Carson. Maybe he should've been prettier, or coded more clearly as The Hero of the story?
no subject
Date: 2006-07-14 10:19 pm (UTC)From:Exactly, I find it interesting that the same people that are so quick to wag their finger at Carson don't seem to have an issue with killing the wraith on a limited basis (as in every week).
It's a really touchy subject, that probably doesn't really have a right answer. They wraith seem to be as "evil" as is gets, they feed of humans and don't really have a problem with it. They are not interested in changing and don't believe they have any reason to. In my opinion it's not the actual eating that makes them "evil" but the fact that they are an intelligent and advanced civilization with absolutely no sense of compassion at all. It's part of the reason why I love them so much and why the "Michael" episode kind of let me down. I like the idea of coming up against something that is completely uncompromising and will consistently force a "them or us" situation. Watching us (SGA) react to this is what makes the show entertaining. Do we try diplomacy? Do we focus on finding allies? Do we strike back? And if so how hard? What are we saying about ourselves every time we interact with them?
Carson coming up with the virus proved that he prefers compromise to confrontation; that he is more interested in everyone being happy then one side being declared the winner.
Yes, he is tampering with years of evolution but who is to say that evolution is the definition of natural and therefore cannot be assisted by science?
no subject
Date: 2006-07-15 04:16 am (UTC)From:I'm off put by the fact that he doesn't follow FDA rules in testing the gene . It's one of the first things we see him do - injecting Rodney while Rodney is freaking out about being the first human to receive it. I find that an unsettling note to begin with.
I do find the wraith retro virus disturbing. I believe he is coming to it from a caring doctor's perspective - he wants to make them better. But in order to do that he has to make them into something they are not.
(Part of me wants him to make them into something they are not in another sense - just give them the ability to choose whether to eat people or not. Then there is an option for them, like the vampires in the Diskworld series who become black armbanders, they can refuse to kill.)
And also it seems unthinking on a practical level to just take the damn retrovirus down to the planet with Elia and not secure it. That's how diseases escape control!
no subject
Date: 2006-07-14 06:18 pm (UTC)From:So for me, not being told what he was thinking, I take all that stuff that we do know about Carson that you mentioned in your first paragraph -- that he's very capable of love and kindness, that he has empathy and warmth and the ability to maintain relationships with people -- and I'm interested in how *this* person might have gone through a process that led him to this choice, and it doesn't feel like an absence of all ethics or a blithe unconcern to me. To me, I'd think the chances were that a deep dread of this predator that none of them view as human and all of them are terribly afraid of combined with his sense of loyalty to and responsibility for the people of Atlantis combined with the immense compassion and grief that almost any human being would feel in the face of what the people of Pegasus have gone through since time immemorial combined with a scientists' worldview and a privileging of life over death -- that all of that came together to convince him that he could invent a solution that would end the threat without killing anybody, that would literally *cure* the Pegasus galaxy.
The problems with this position are easy to understand -- easy enough that I got very frustrated with the show for not having a single character who seemed to understand them, in spite of the fact that 95% of the audience immediately did. That's just bad writing, and it makes everyone look dumb.
I do admit that I can't prove Carson, or anyone else on the show, thought about *any* of this -- but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm just saying that since we know A, this set of facts about who Carson is, and we know Z, what he does in this case, the set of thoughts and biases and choices that got him to that point don't seem absent to me. I mean -- I don't think this is very clearly articulated, but it's easier for me to follow this chain of causality than to believe it wasn't there at all. It's an ill-chosen road in many ways, but I think I understand how the choices got made.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-15 04:09 am (UTC)From:I think there is a certain carelessness about ethics established almost from the beginning. When he gives Rodney the gene he makes some sort of joking comment about not being able to do this on Earth because of the FDA regulations, Rodney kicks up a bit and he injects him anyway. There are no negative reprecussions for this act, but it makes me uneasy.
That's one of the first experiments we see him do and I think it sets a disturbing tone.
With the Wraith, it's difficult, very difficult. On one hand, they are such cartoon villains and are completely incompatible with humans. On the other hand, altering their whole make up means altering their whole culture and just seems wrong. I can't see why he can't experiment with making them able to eat human food rather than humans. That would open up positive options rather than negative ones.