hth | drive-by non-commentary

So I'm moving to North Carolina in ONEWEEKOMFGPANIC!!11! and have very little time for nuance and profound thought. On the other hand, neither do the writers of SGA, so we're even, yes?

A) the IOA problem

Picture this. You are hired by the IOA to run a delicate and dangerous classified research operation, because of your sterling credits as a diplomatic negotiator. You proceed to do not one single thing as a diplomatic negotiator that requires any skills whatsoever, AND help destabilize one of the galaxy's most advanced civilizations by attempting to betray the guy who wins, who mainly forgives you because he was expecting you to do so all along, AND THEN your city springs a security leak which, oops, requires you to phone home and let them know that a giant ship full of malevolent people-eaters may be on Earth's doorstep in two weeks.

Do they fire you instantaneously? They do not. They convene a review board to figure out WTF IS GOING ON IN ATLANTIS and request the honor of your presence. You arrive in an aggrieved huff and want to know how you are supposed to operate if you have to be here answering silly questions by guys in suits who weren't there at the time you made these decisions. At least, you insist, you *decided* something. You are the Decider. They send a guy to Atlantis to figure out wtf is going on, and your ill-tempered thug of a military commander threatens to knock him out if he keeps, you know, asking all those damn questions. You both continue to insist that nobody has any right to suggest it could be anybody's fault that things are going to hell in the Pegasus Galaxy. These things just happen! Why play the blame game? Accountability is for pussies in bad suits, not action heroes like yourselves. Eventually, through the course of an episode where you DO NOTHING and make NO DECISIONS of any kind, the investigator inexplicably decides that the kids are all right after all, because at least your thug seems to know when to press the red button, and really, what more do you need? He goes away, leaving everything exactly the way he found it.

Bzuh? What the hell just happened?

Hey, if the IOA thinks things are swimming along just beautifully on Atlantis, so be it. Personally, I wouldn't vote for Elizabeth Weir for dogcatcher and I continue to be stunned stupid by the amount of loyalty she apparently commands from everyone around her, but hey. They don't seem to think that anyone else could do any better, so that's their decision. What I object to is the totally offensive and mean-tempered tone of the whole thing, where we the viewers are expected to interpret the IOA reviewers as Bad Guys hellbent on spoiling our party out here on Atlantis even though they clearly can't understand a thing about it, even though we're in constant communication with the IOA and the military is there checking up on things via the Daedalus in every other episode -- we're not exactly in the wilderness out here, and I don't see why the folks back home don't deserve to have a say in how things are running. They do foot the bills, yes? Elizabeth isn't the freaking Sun King; she was hired to do a job, and she has bosses with every right to review her performance, and yet everyone goes on like you burn in *hell* if you look at her cross-eyed.

Ultimately, the buck stops somewhere. Elizabeth and John have this whole cowboy-diplomacy mindset, where it's just them and their friends who get to do everything and decide everything -- but not to assume any consequences, because at least they made a decision, and apparently any decision at all will do in a pinch. Personally, I'm pro-democracy enough to be *pleased* by the idea that there's a review process, and that if things start going totally pear-shaped, the people who work for the governments on Earth who are the ostensible sponsors of this grand adventure have some recourse and some ability (even if apparently they don't want to exercise it at this time) to change the way things are going. The whole Dirty Harry mindset on SGA has just come to nauseate me; nobody there works for anyone but themselves, and if I were in charge of the IOA, I'd recall every last one of them and decide from scratch whether or not to reconstitute the program at all. What exactly has Earth gotten from the Atlantis station so far, other than the threat of Wraith?

B) the Wraith problem

I have, as I've said before, no strong feelings one way or the other on the theoretical morality of the retrovirus. I don't see how it's that different, in the long run, from building a bomb that vaporizes Wraith -- either way, you're pretty much ending the Wraith threat without the consent of the Wraith. Either way, it's a weapon; there's a strong emotional resistance in most of us to the *thought* of the experimentation it requires and the idea of biological warfare, but on the other hand, I do dig the idea that if we have to invent a new weapon, we're at least inventing one that can't be used against anyone *but* the Wraith, unlike a new conventional superweapon, or the nukes we're so very fond of on this show.

However, my conditional acceptance of the retrovirus program was always based on the mad hope that it would, you know, WORK. It doesn't. It absolutely is not effective, because *the effects are temporary.* The next time someone says "as long as they keep taking the injections," I'm going to kick my tv out the window, because it's the most fucking stupid thing to say imaginable. We DO NOT HAVE the resources to force them to take their medication until the day they die, and it's insane to imagine they'll all do it voluntarily, as anyone who's tried to keep a loved one on their heart pills or their antipsychotics once they start feeling "fine" again can vouch for. They will not keep taking the injections, and as we learned in Misbegotten, it doesn't take more than one person reverting back to a Wraith to tip everyone else off that they're being played. As long as the effects of the retrovirus are temporary, the Wraith are still basically Wraith. The "cure" does not work. Maybe someday it will. Right now, it does not.

Releasing the weaponized retrovirus in the season premiere was a last-ditch defense, and in that limited form, it succeeded. The hive ship crashed to a stop, and our heroes didn't die. I am all for this. But since the retrovirus is useless as a long-term solution, that means that Misbegotten requires a NEW long-term solution. The retrovirus isn't it, because it *doesn't work.* I don't think Atlantis is a bunch of Nazis for developing it, but I do think they're a bunch of morons for acting like it's supposed to solve anything.

Basically, the retrovirus as it stands functions like the stun setting on Ronon's gun. It saved everyone's lives by taking the Wraith out of the game at a critical moment, and it allowed Atlantis to take the Wraith prisoner on a remote planet. All well and good. But now they have this detention camp that no one will admit is a fucking detention camp. These people aren't rehabilitated humans, or we'd let them have a Gate and get on with their lives. They're prisoners of war that we have no intention of ever, *ever* allowing to leave that camp, for obvious reasons. I can't stand the ignorant prattle about how we'll just let them live out their lives in peace -- what the fucking FUCK? We'll "let" them grow potatoes until they get old and die off on their own? You're offering to "let" them die in prison for the protection of the outside world, and the terms of that won't change whether you give them enough medication to keep them looking like humans or not.

Let me be clear, that isn't even what bugs me. The Wraith are not candidates, so far as I can tell, for rehabilitation and parole. They're too dangerous, and I'm not morally opposed to letting people get old and die in prison, if I think the alternative is to let them out so they can keep killing. That is, at times, the entire point of prison. I just can't bear the fact that nobody seems willing to discuss this choice in honest terms. There's this silly Pollyannaish attitude that, hey, maybe everything will be okay for them after all! There are no Wraith *women* in this penal colony. They can't establish any kind of viable culture or civilization, because there won't be any more of them. They're going to stay right where they are until the day they die, one by one. Imagining that there's much of an upside to this from their point of view is ridiculous. Maybe they'd prefer it to being carpet-bombed into oblivion right here and now and maybe they wouldn't, but let's not act like there's any opportunity for a genuinely mutually satisfying resolution to this problem.

I'm not sure what I was supposed to feel when our heroes finally figured out that their prisoners were far too dangerous ever to be allowed to contact the outside world, and that there's no good way to prevent that from happening. Am I supposed to feel sad that we executed them? I don't feel any more or less sad than I would've if we'd blown up the hive ship an hour and a half ago. There's no way to prevent 200 Wraith who know about Atlantis and may well still know how to get to Earth and really hate us now from being a threat; they simply are a threat. The retrovirus was supposed to make them stop being Wraith, but we know now that's not what it does; it makes their Wraithness and their memories go temporarily dormant. They are a clear and present danger to Atlantis for as long as they live; you either live with that danger, or you kill them. There's no happy ending involved with letting them live -- life without parole and with the constant threat that another hive ship will find them and spring them is not great for them and it's not safe for us. Killing them is also not so great for them, but if we're at war with the Wraith -- and everyone seems to agree that we are -- then killing them is what war is *for.* Let's not bullshit about that. How was I supposed to feel when they died? Killing them is what war is for. I don't love that, but I can live with it. It would have saved us all a lot of grief and dead bodies if we'd just gone ahead and killed them while they were in stasis on the hive ship. The retrovirus doesn't work, we don't have the resources to imprison them forever safely, and killing them is the very definition of war. If you want to be a hard-line pacifist, this may be the wrong galaxy for you to hang your hat in, you know what I mean?

I'm just bored with the pretense that we can stop treating the Wraith like Wraith once they've had their shots. As long as a missed treatment will make them revert to Wraith, the bottom line is, they're *Wraith.* Hell, even on Buffy, it would have taken complicated brain surgery to make Spike revert to maneater status; in this scenario, it takes twisting your ankle on a walk through the woods and not making it back in time for supper. It takes *nothing.* It could happen accidentally or deliberately at the drop of a hat. They're just doped-up Wraith, unless the treatment is permanent, and we have to deal with them by deciding what we plan to do with captured Wraith. Obviously we plan to kill them; I would, John Sheppard *certainly* would, and I imagine most of you would, too, under the circumstances. So let's do it and move on. Whatever illusions we had that the retrovirus might be used to help the Wraith surely ended when we realized it doesn't work as promised, and that reverted Wraith hate us more than ever before, for obvious reasons. Just use it as the damn weapon that it is and get on with your lives.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

A) So, I'm not the only one who was hoping Elizabeth would be raked over the coals? (Actually, I was really hoping she'd get fired, but I knew that wasn't going to happen. There are 3 sci-fi shows I can think of where it might have happened, and SGA isn't one of them.)

Barring that, I would have loved to have someone assigned there to watch her like a hawk and question every decision. Bates used to do that a little. (At least I think it was Bates. I forget the names.)

And, yes, I do wonder how Atlantis benefits Earth. Allies? Weapons? Technology? None of the stuff they've found seems to make a difference to anyone but the Atlanteans. It's too late to wish for it, but some of this would be easier to swallow without the easy access to Earth and the Deus ex Daedelus.

B) the Wraith problem... [snip] I don't see how it's that different, in the long run, from building a bomb that vaporizes Wraith -- either way, you're pretty much ending the Wraith threat without the consent of the Wraith. Either way, it's a weapon;

That, in a nutshell, is how I feel about it and why it bugs me when they talk about cures. I'd go half a step further. Even if they didn't need the shots (along with the ability to remain 100% compliant and a lifetime supply of syringes, needles, and medication, funded by Earth's bottomless wallet), how could we ever be sure? There are cancers that can relapse up to 20 years later. Medications can stop working. Who is going to keep track and make sure they haven't reverted and started life-sucking their neighbors? Who'd want to be their neighbor?

So, call it a weapon and I'm fine with that. Maybe someday the humans will find a peaceful solution and both sides would agree, but the retro-virus is far from being that solution. Hopefully, the spectacular failure will have them looking for another alternative.

But I was thinking about this before the episode, so I was able to roll my eyes at the numerous WTH moments and just focus on my fave characters (Ronon, Teyla, Michael).

here are 3 sci-fi shows I can think of where it might have happened, and SGA isn't one of them

Three whole shows? Which? Babylon 5, maybe?

Babylon 5, Farscape, and Battlestar Galactica.

And maybe an honorable mention to Star Trek: Deep Space 9.

Barring that, I would have loved to have someone assigned there to watch her like a hawk and question every decision. Bates used to do that a little.

Part of the reason I was so sad that a lot of fandom took on the show's knee-jerk dislike of Caldwell is that he's the character who really could do that. He's had the authority and the willingness in the past to say, "That plan sucks; don't do it," and I've always liked the grace with which he steps up and helps fix things when he gets overruled. And yet there's this low-grade hysteria that omg, Caldwell is trying to take over! When, you know, if I were in his position, I'd be trying much harder than he is. Misbegotten makes me worried that he's going to experience a conversion to the cult of Elizabeth, rather than being the loyal opposition the show so desperately needs.

The whole storyline just makes me love Ronon more *g* I can trust that if he were in charge, we would *certainly* shoot them all and be done with this ridiculous plotline.

I didn't realize so many people dislike Caldwell, but I did enjoy his willingness to state his mind. The 1st time I was surprised by Elizabeth's reaction to him was in "Conversion" when he made some changes (duty roster?) after taking command. I get what she was saying about morale, but I don't think they had the luxury of waiting if important changes needed to be made. And I'd think the military people would be well-accustomed to rolling with the punches. (It doesn't help that it's nearly impossible to judge what people think of Sheppard's leadership, outside of the main cast. Maybe they'd prefer Caldwell's style. I think I would.) In hindsight, it might have been advisable to have the military and civilians act as co-leaders of the expedition.

I'm not too worried about Caldwell converting wholeheartedly, but I doubt we'll see them butting heads as much as they did. And I'd love it if the opposition didn't always come from the military, but from within or from the civilian sector (Earth or Pegasus) because otherwise, it becomes too easy to slip into a good guy/bad guy dichotomy.

And, yes, Ronon is a breath of consistent fresh air among all the wafflers.

Whatever illusions we had that the retrovirus might be used to help the Wraith surely ended when we realized it doesn't work as promised, and that reverted Wraith hate us more than ever before, for obvious reasons. Just use it as the damn weapon that it is and get on with your lives.

Is it weird that it NEVER even occurred to me that they were actually going to use the retrovirus as anything *but* a weapon to soften up the Wraith before killing them? I mean, this was before they established that it causes amnesia as a side effect, but I *always* saw it as "Hey, let's take away their invulnerability, whammy powers, and bio-interface tech, and then KILL THEM," not "Yay, let's cure them and all live in harmony!" I guess because it never occurred to me that the Wraith would be *into that*.

But seriously, even if it DID work-- the retrovirus isn't a "cure," it's a poison. The Wraith are creatures that are naturally immortal, right? They can heal their own inuiries, I assume they don't get sick-- if you left them alone, they would *never die of old age*. So you take them and shoot them up with this chemical that's going to make them die in maybe another fifty or sixty years (and that's if they're lucky) and you're calling it a *cure*?

Are Carson and John and Elizabeth etc. really so short-sighted that they actually think there's a huge practical *difference* between converting a Wraith and letting it live in prison for what, to a Wraith, is a tiny, tiny blip of time-- during which time the Wraith is amnesiac and crippled, basically-- and converting a Wraith and then killing it instantly? I mean, in conclusion: no! It's *not good* to shoot your helpless prisoner in the head while he's unconscious and amnesiac-- but? NOTHING the SGA team has come up with so far is *any better* and it's ridiculous for them to pretend that it is, just so they can-- what? Feel good about themselves? I don't even know!

"Yay, let's cure them and all live in harmony!" I guess because it never occurred to me that the Wraith would be *into that*.

Well, they supplied us with this ultraconvenient plot device for that problem, in that the drug both causes amnesia (so that they have nothing immediate to be pissed at us for) and seems to turn Wraith not just into humans but (judging by Michael, at least) into sweet-tempered, patient, good-humored, kindly humans. Which is, I don't know, our natural state? So within the parameters of Atlantisworld, they don't have to be into it, because they'll never know, and we can live in harmony with them because they really are great neighbors.

So you take them and shoot them up with this chemical that's going to make them die in maybe another fifty or sixty years (and that's if they're lucky) and you're calling it a *cure*?

But from the relentlessly human-centric pov of the Stargate universe, it is a cure, because human is the very best thing to be. Look at it this way: if you had to choose between living your regular allotted human lifespan and gaining immortality at the cost of becoming a strange hybrid hive creature who eats humans alive, you'd probably decide immortality wasn't worth the cost, right? (Please say yes. *g*) Most humans would make that choice, and we would generally consider one who didn't to be deeply damaged, even sociopathic. So by Stargate logic, if the retrovirus offers two options, humanity or Wraithness, choosing to be a Wraith would be deranged, while choosing to stay human is correct, and under those terms having the choice is a kind of cure.

but? NOTHING the SGA team has come up with so far is *any better* and it's ridiculous for them to pretend that it is, just so they can-- what? Feel good about themselves? I don't even know!

That's what bugs me. I do think a lot of the ideological pretzels they're tying themselves into have to do with feeling good about themselves. The only character who's been allowed to openly say, "why not just kill them?" is Ronon, and he's always functioned as a shadow-personality for Atlantis, just alien enough to displace scary impulses onto someone we can portray as a savage in order to show that, although maybe we're not unsympathetic to that savagery, we don't let ourselves sink to it. It's Critical Mass all over again: Earth humans are *less* responsible for torture if the blood is on Ronon's hands, and Earth humans are *less* responsible for the extermination of 200 Wraith if Ronon was the only one who really wanted it to happen that way, and the rest of us were just trapped by cruel circumstance, and we all had our somber faces on when it happened.

The character I find interesting is Sheppard, who I think knows it's all an absurd pretense and would be happy to kill them out of hand, but doesn't quite feel in a position to say so. It's kind of fun to watch him struggle with his impatience over this nonsense about curing the Wraith. I really think Sheppard has dealt with his self-image earlier in life and is more willing than the rest of our main cast to confess that he can be a stone killer if the tactics warrant it. Elizabeth, Carson, and Rodney aren't there yet.

sweet-tempered, patient, good-humored, kindly humans. Which is, I don't know, our natural state?

See, some people argue that the retrovirus creates a new person with an entirely new personality, whereas I think it creates a Wraith in a human body and no memories, but the *same* core personality as before. Judging by Elia, we know that Wraith are *capable* of feeling love, loyalty, empathy, guilt about doing bad things-- if Wraith didn't actually feel humanlike emotions, if they were born sociopaths or were just killing machines like sharks, Elia wouldn't have turned out like she did no matter who raised her. So I don't think we can say that human!Michael's personality wasn't *his personality* even before the retrovirus. Like, I doubt we humans come off as good-humored and kindly to... I don't know, mink. Or mice. So maybe Wraith *are* naturally sweet and nice. To other Wraith.

(Not that this means we shouldn't kill them if they're trying to kill us. I'm just sayin'.)

But from the relentlessly human-centric pov of the Stargate universe, it is a cure, because human is the very best thing to be.

Oh, yeah, I get why Carson calls it that, I just can't believe *Michael* hasn't ever brought it up as a sticking point. "Oh, I can be human and 'live a full life?' That sounds great, Teyla, but I'd rather live out my *natural* full life. Y'know, the one where I don't actually ever get old and die."

Look at it this way: if you had to choose between living your regular allotted human lifespan and gaining immortality at the cost of becoming a strange hybrid hive creature who eats humans alive, you'd probably decide immortality wasn't worth the cost, right? (Please say yes. *g*)

Well, yes, of course. But, that would be me choosing to change from what I naturally am into something unnatural, whereas for Michael it's the opposite: he just wants to stay the way he naturally is. Like, you could come up and tell me, "we both agree, animal cruelty is a big problem, so I've figured out how to give you the ability to photosynthesize," and I'd be like, "Great!" and then you're like, "Also, it will cut 60 years off your life, and give you permanent amnesia for the three years you have left, and *also* cause total deafness," or something else that's the equivalent of losing your natural Wraith telepathy.

And I'd be like... well, actually? Never mind. Turns out I don't care about animals *quite that much*. I mean, I doubt even a hardcore PETA-card-carrying animal rights activist would take that deal. Nobody would!

And then the other thing is, of course I wouldn't choose to be a vampire who has to kill humans in order to extend my own life, but to the Wraith, humans aren't "human," they're not sentients, just like dolphins or apes aren't given the same rights as people even though they're smart and can talk and feel emotions, etc. So if you told me I could gain immortality by becoming a cow vampire who has to regularly murder cows to drain their life force... well, I kind of already do that, in the sense that I like cheeseburgers, so sign me up!

... Okay, maybe not if I had to kill the cows myself and it was obviously a very prolonged and painful way for them to die... but then again, I don't make sure every burger I eat comes from a free range organic farm, either. So I'm aware that from, say, the hardcore vegan's point of view I'm not much different from a Cow Vampire who kills her victims personally. (And at least the Cow Vampire can't pretend that her cheeseburger just magically appeared without anything having to die for it.)

(Sometimes I have a feeling that if I keep talking about this so much, I might talk myself into vegetarianism by the time SGA is over. Which would be sad, because mmmm, bacon. *sighs*)

It's Critical Mass all over again: Earth humans are *less* responsible for torture if the blood is on Ronon's hands, and Earth humans are *less* responsible for the extermination of 200 Wraith if Ronon was the only one who really wanted it to happen that way, and the rest of us were just trapped by cruel circumstance, and we all had our somber faces on when it happened.

(And then their "whee!" faces two seconds later, ugh.)

I think my favorite moment in "Misbegotten," actually, was that moment in the tent when Ronon is thinking about what will happen if the Wraith revert and have nothing to eat except each other. It's subtle, but he's like, "Oh, COME ON. What happens if the Wraith are forced to cannibalize each other? It's my best day ever, that's what!"

Seriously, how perfect and poetic is that if you're Ronon? It's not just a Wraith being killed horribly, it's a Wraith suffering the exact same horrible death that he's inflicted on countless humans for thousands of years; it's the laugh-a-minute, feel-good flick of the millenium, and Ronon would TiVo it and watch it EVERY DAY.

Now that I think about it, it's the one moment in that whole show where I could actually sympathize with someone's feelings AND understand the logical reasons why they felt that way. (Even Michael lost some points for "Wahh, why do I still have guards on me? I wanted you to trust me!" Bitch, please, even Ronon had guards on him for days and days, okay? You don't just get to wander around Atlantis without guards, don't be dumb.) Which is kind of sad, and definitely a comment on the SGA writers-- I mean, the 'shadow' shouldn't *be* the only one I can really get behind-- but oh well.

The character I find interesting is Sheppard, who I think knows it's all an absurd pretense and would be happy to kill them out of hand, but doesn't quite feel in a position to say so. It's kind of fun to watch him struggle with his impatience over this nonsense about curing the Wraith. I really think Sheppard has dealt with his self-image earlier in life and is more willing than the rest of our main cast to confess that he can be a stone killer if the tactics warrant it.

Well, there's that *and* his personal guilt about all the people now dying because of *him*. And you can say, yeah, those people would have died anyway, but who knows-- maybe the Genii would have come up with something, maybe the Hoffans would have-- who knows. I think it's something John thinks about a lot.

What bugs me is that their stupidity in dealing with the Wraith prisoners cost the lives of several *permanent* humans and the captured Wraith ship, which could have been really useful, and there wasn't any indication that they thought they acted stupid. And they just kind of played with them, which is more cruel than just killing them. Personally I would have fed a few to Michael to string him along a while to get some more intelligence about the Wraith and their ships (after all feeding them to other Wraith was the initial plan anyway), and just spaced the rest. Michael would have gone along with it too, because clearly he was trying to buy time to find an escape opportunity and had no qualms about turning collaborator as long as it saved his skin a while longer, but the Atlantis team could have used the guards and resources they wouldn't have needed to guard hundreds of (temporarily ex-)Wraith to make sure Michael was no threat.

What bugs me is that their stupidity in dealing with the Wraith prisoners cost the lives of several *permanent* humans and the captured Wraith ship, which could have been really useful

Word. It was totally glossed over in the rush to Action Finale, but I was personally outraged for the guys who got killed after being stuck on this duty for no good reason. (One more reason you apparently don't want to be a black guy on Atlantis, to boot.) I think their lives were very much thrown away, and it bugs me that I don't get any indication that the characters feel responsible for sending them there in the first place.

I don't feel any more or less sad than I would've if we'd blown up the hive ship an hour and a half ago.

This, to me, is the only thing that matters. Our heroes would have cheerfully blown them up along with the hive ship without a second thought and there would have been none of this moralizing going on. Why is it different now that they aren't in the hive? They still want to kill humans and will do so at the first opportunity. It doesn't matter that they look like people; we know they are not.

And also, somebody else commented that they didn't think the retrovirus was for anything but destroying the Wraith. Not a cure so we can all live in harmony, but a way to make it easier for them to be destroyed. I totally agree. So if that's ok, why isn't ok to blow them up on the planet, regardless of what the look like?

Ugh. I just find this totally frustrating. Although, mostly I love SGA because it's fun and goofy and pretty, not because I want to make in-depth analysis of the morals and such. I mean, the writers obviously make it pretty hard to take the show that seriously, so maybe people should quit trying to read so much into it and just go with the flow.

Our heroes would have cheerfully blown them up along with the hive ship without a second thought and there would have been none of this moralizing going on. Why is it different now that they aren't in the hive

For the same reason police are allowed both legally and (to almost everyone) ethically to use deadly force to apprehend dangerous fleeing criminals, but aren't allowed to summarily execute them once they're captured (and can't even judicially execute them except in a relatively small percentage of cases). And for the same reason no one in the civilized world allows the summary execution of prisoners after capture or surrender. A massive power disparity creates responsibilities, especially if you've created it.

Flip the situation. The Wraith have captured our heroes in the possession of intelligence that might change the course of the war. They're in a prison camp. Rescue approaches, and the Wraith know they can't prevent it. They decide to flee, but first to gas the whole camp, including other prisoners who didn't possess the knowledge (but could be told it). Seem quite as completely unobjectionable?

In the end, I would have to concede that the sparing of lives of prisoners and those actively dangerous to you is a moral imperative only insofar as it doesn't seriously compromise your own safety. As the situation developed in "Misbegotten", I don't think the team had any choice. But it only developed that way in the first place because of their ongoing incredible incompetence, so that justification is, long-term, very shaky, and it was an ugly, ugly thing to have to do. Of course people are disturbed by it. We just had a huge political struggle over whether it's okay to *torture* prisoners or keep them locked up forever without any recourse; naturally people are deeply troubled by the intimation that killing them once they're helpless is just fine and dandy.

For the same reason police are allowed both legally and (to almost everyone) ethically to use deadly force to apprehend dangerous fleeing criminals, but aren't allowed to summarily execute them once they're captured

But we're not police officers. We are not apprehending citizens who are legally innocent until proven guilty in a court of law -- none of that applies even remotely to the Wraith. A cop doesn't have to decide what to do with a criminal once he's been detained, because there is a highly specific procedure for that, but in the case of Atlantis, there's no one to turn them over to, and therefore no reasonable ability to abdicate responsibility at some point. Likewise with captured human prisoners; we don't allow their execution because we know what to do with them. We're not in a situation where we're trying to contain a potentially endless number of hostile captives with a biological need to murder us. There is no human analogue for that situation.

This isn't a political war among humans for land or influence, waged between people who intend at some point to come to a settlement and cease hostilities. This is a ten-thousand year old down-and-dirty contest for survival between two species who can never, ever be friends or allies because one of them is overpopulated and in desperate competition for food, and the other one *is* food. No, I don't think the rules of engagement are the same. This is like nothing that's ever happened on Earth, or ever could happen, and at some point you have to have fight the war you have. In the flipped situation, would I be sad about the deaths of the human prisoners? Of course I would. But I honestly wouldn't reasonably expect the Wraith to compromise their own safety by releasing prisoners who will only return immediately to being enemy combatants again. I wouldn't do it because it's stupid, and they're not going to do it for the same reason.

I agree with you entirely that the situation would never have occurred if it hadn't been for a long string of fuck-ups that preceded it. I just feel that one of those fuck-ups was believing we had the reasonable ability to contain them at all and concocting this asinine prison camp. I think any reasonable person could have forseen how badly that plan was going to go, and I think killing them in the hive ship would have saved the lives of the Atlanteans who died trying to secure an unsecurable prison colony.

I find real-world analogies to this plotline suspect at best. Hey, I'm a long-term bleeding-heart liberal: I'm wholly anti-death penalty and largely anti-war, I've been vocal for years about civil liberties and prison reform, and nobody is angrier than I am about situations like Guantanamo Bay. But those are human beings. I'm willing to be honest about the fact that if we had prisoners on this planet who could only survive by eating live humans, I would see their situation in somewhat different terms. It's not a matter of Same Shit, Different Galaxy. It's different from top to bottom.

I totally agree. It's not the same as it would be here on earth. There are extenuating circumstances.

And I also agree this is their own fault. They did what they had to do to survive but they should never have started the prison camp.

Likewise with captured human prisoners; we don't allow their execution because we know what to do with them.

I don't think it's clearly established that it's impossible to contain the Wraith, permanently. Those Wraith, in that situation, yes, which is why I ultimately *do* think it was justified to kill them. But, setting that aside as speculative, to simply phrase it, as the commenter did, as a matter of "it was okay to kill them before they were helpless, why isn't it okay afterwards?" is a serious error, both for the reason I laid out last night and because even if you think they still had the power, the greater power doesn't always include the lesser (i.e., right to kill doesn't necessarily entail right to torture). Just because you could once justifiably kill someone doesn't mean you always can--which your answer indicates you know.

This isn't a political war among humans for land or influence, waged between people who intend at some point to come to a settlement and cease hostilities.

Actually, I doubt there's been an actual war between the Wraith and humans in a fair number of years before the Earthers; the power disparity is too great. Nor are the Earthers themselves in permanent peril from the Wraith, as they could always simply leave the city for Earth, having the city self-destruct. We're only in danger from the Wraith because we choose to be. And it's not a "contest for survival," because the Wraith aren't out to destroy all humans. That would destroy *them*. We're the ones into complete genocide.

Ultimately, I bet the Earthers *could* divvy up the galaxy with the Wraith and cease actual warfare, if they got enough firepower behind them, leaving the Wraith with some feeding grounds. The Wraith are obviously highly *used* to limiting their need for food and could adjust themselves to a more limited hunting ground if they had to (they probably only haven't started going *back* into hibernation now because they need their full populations to fight with each other; we have no reason to think they *couldn't*). We don't want to do that because we think it would be unethical, but then you have to start asking yourself why human life should be so sacred and Wraith life ultimately valueless. "They're human beings" is not a good enough answer in itself. The Wraith are at least as sentient as we are, feel the same pain we do, and didn't ask to need to eat us to live. I tend to roll my eyes when some goofus on a TV show says "But then we're no better than they are!!!", but lately humans in the Pegasus galaxy have done precious little to distinguish themselves from the Wraith, morally.

I mean, the writers obviously make it pretty hard to take the show that seriously, so maybe people should quit trying to read so much into it and just go with the flow.

Theoretically I agree with you, except that I'm to the point where episodes like these last two aren't fun for me to watch anymore. I just look at these characters and think, "You are too stupid and self-serving and smug to bear. I need you to shut up, *now.*" I'm not *trying* to read anything into anything. I'd like to stop. I just feel like the stupid is so in my face at this point that it's hard to know what else to think about while they're running around on screen doing this kind of shit.

Once they go back to planet-of-the-week silliness, I can probably repress my memories of how much I disliked this whole plot arc.

I totally understand. I think I am still new enough to the show (I just started watching in March or so) that their stupidity hasn't gotten to me yet, so it's easy for me to dismiss.

For curiosity's sake -- where in NC? I can give you scoop on the Triangle area, the Triad area, Charlotte, and even some about the mountains and "down east" if it would help!

Durham! We'll technically be in our new apartment on the 31st, but the truck with most of our worldly goods won't arrive for another few days, so I expect we'll be crashing with a friend in Chapel Hill until then.

Cool! I grew up in Chapel Hill, and my dad lives in Durham (we're going to be there Aug 6 - 8 if you want to do lunch or anything!)

Durham's got a Whole Foods, a brand spankin' new mall off I-40 east of town, Elmo's Diner, Sal's Pizza, Bullock's BBQ...can you tell I like to eat out while visiting there? ;)

Our apartment is riiiiiight down the road from that very mall. We should absolutely get together that week and celebrate/commiserate over whatever the hell they do in "Sateda" *g*

Hey!

We lived in an apartment complex on Fayetteville Rd. when we first got married -- Innesbrook Apts, about a mile west of 40.

E-mail me at trueblueism at aol dot com and let's see if we can make a plan!

A-FUCKING-MEN. But you're much more lucid about this than I am. I'm still just with the swearing and the rage.

The IOA situation... GRAH. Civilians have NEVER gotten any respect on the stargates, EVER, and they're us. I just--are we supposed to forget that? Or do they think 100% of their audience is Air Force and Marine?

I think they think their audience wishes they were Air Force and Marine. I think Stargate plays to this cowboys-and-Indians fantasy where the rough and tumble real men are the heroes and the pantywaists from back East don't have what it takes to win, and we the audience are encouraged to imagine ourselves vicariously as the cowboy/soldier/cop/all-American hero, not the paper-pushers. All of which is sort of grossly anti-American in a way, since we were expressly designed as the nation where the armed forces would have to take their orders from the farmers who held down jobs in Washington, a radical Enlightenment refutation of the idea that the guys who enforced the laws should be the same guys who made them up. I think people who complain about the poor use of female characters in Stargate overlook the fact that it's symptomatic of Stargate's crushing machismo and utter contempt for any and all feminine values. It's all the world of the two-fisted hero and the brothers-in-arms, no sissy stuff allowed, and that includes the male sissies who work in administration as well as the girls. And yes, I think they imagine that the audience will find this mythology appealing and insert themselves in the place of the Real Men and not the Girly Men.

Or maybe I'm just cranky. Either way, I continue to subvert their intentions by making Ronon conflicted and sensitive and Sheppard hugely gay. *g*

....now I desperately want to make Sheppard a secret cross-dresser. He was so conflicted about coming because he would never be able to wear a pretty dress again! But then they discovered the Planet of the Nailpolish, and he was thrilled deep down in his pink, frilly soul.

You laugh, but I'm pretty sure I've read that story.

It's all the world of the two-fisted hero and the brothers-in-arms, no sissy stuff allowed, and that includes the male sissies who work in administration as well as the girls.

I was just saying this to

thelastgoodname over here (http://thelastgoodname.livejournal.com/98104.html?thread=690232#t690232)-- she's all "what's up with the Stargate military/academic pairing fetish?" and I'm like: it's a self-insert. The Stargate PTB, charming as I find some of them, are a bunch of huge nerds and so they've created this mythology where the nerds get to *be* a part of the intense masculine homosocial bonding-- S1!Daniel is this bookish, shy geek with huge glasses, tripping over his own feet, sneezing-- the ubernerd-- but also he gets to be Jack's right hand man and watch his back and die for him and drink beer with him, etc. etc.

I actually see Rodney and John as a bit of a step up in this regard, although I really wonder if I should give the writers credit for that, or Flanigan for playing Sheppard as, like, (I was just talking to Ces about this last night) the mean older brother, with the head-thwaps and the teasing and the cock-blocking, which provokes Rodney's sort of younger-brother attitude, "Fine, I don't want to come play with you ANYWAY, you big stupidhead.... so why won't you let me???" Like, certainly more realistic in terms of how the Manly Hero who, like you said, has to *disdain* all this sissy stuff, is not actually going to have a "theirloveissopure" thing going on with the Geek.

But I support your subversion of it anyway. :)

Is it shallow of me that my overwhelming reaction to "No Man's Land" was, "Look how Ronon is taking care of Rodney! Alpha Cen lives!"

No, it is not shallow, it is *focussed*. I shall now draw sparkly hearts around you. *draws*

Hee! They were pretty adorable together. I loved him being all, "I'm not cutting you loose until you promise to quit being so negative." It was like a little impromptu couples therapy session in the middle of a hive ship! We need to talk. When you say that we're all going to die, it makes me feel like I don't have your full support as I try to bust our asses out of here.

We need to talk. When you say that we're all going to die, it makes me feel like I don't have your full support as I try to bust our asses out of here.

*dies* You slay me, H.

Man, what you said!

You totally hit the nail on the head regarding the Wraith *and* Elizabeth.

It'd be easier to understand SGA's hesitation to make difficult decisions regarding the post-virus Wraith, if the Wraith didn't need to eat us to live. I mean, you can't find a balance that's good for everyone with those parameters; there's no way to negotiate your way to an equable settlement, where everyone gets a fair slice of the pie, when one of the parties has to *eat* the other to survive.

Though, that's easy for me to say, but whenever I'm faced with Michael's pitiful eyes of betrayal, I go completely to pieces and *hate* SGA for being mean to him. It's the pretty that gets me - and Michael hurts so *beautifully*. So, yeah. Umm. As long as they're *Wraith*, I'm good. So they should just let them revert back *then* shoot them.

That the makers encouraged Torri Higginson to play the scenes with that attitude really surprised me. There was a Wraith ship headed towards Earth because of Elizabeth's decisions - indignant pissy-ness didn't seem warranted. They get Elizabeth so *wrong*.

It's beginning to be clear to me, though; that we don't come by these dilemmas through any deliberate thought on the part of the makers of SGA, but rather as a side effect of them not realizing the consequences of where they're taking the series. Sometimes I don't feel our show is in safe hands.

Though, that's easy for me to say, but whenever I'm faced with Michael's pitiful eyes of betrayal, I go completely to pieces and *hate* SGA for being mean to him. It's the pretty that gets me - and Michael hurts so *beautifully*

Michael brings out my inner Noble Savage. He has such immense dignity that it hurts me to see him dragged from place to place while Atlantis tries in its dumb and clumsy way to figure out a way to get rid of him without feeling bad about it. By the time we had that little "Are you my executioner?"/"I wish" exchange, I was like, you know, I wish, too. I wish they'd just give him the dignity of a quick, clean execution. I like Michael, and given that his existence is untenable (you can't *really* just give him a Jumper and wish him good luck, however weirdly grateful you feel toward him), I wish he could have died in a manner somewhat more honorable than having his brain stripped from him yet again and then being bombed from orbit. I don't generally feel like we owe the Wraith much in the way of honor, but Michael is an exceptional case.

I never feel like the show is in safe hands. One of the things that baffled me with these episodes was that they seemed to specifically construct this need for Elizabeth to prove herself to SGC and the IOA...and then she didn't do anything. Any semi-competent writer would have engineered some singular chance for Elizabeth to shine, and then they'd go, "Look how you handled that! We're sorry we ever doubted you!" I mean, a really *good* writer would still make her accountable for past mistakes, but a *passable* writer would at least give her one grand moment that we could tenuously accept made up for all the rest of that stuff. But she does *nothing* over the course of the episodes, good or bad. It was the first moment that I thought to myself, Hey, these writers aren't just sloppy, they really have no idea how to construct a story. They're totally unqualified for their jobs, and at this point I've moved past the writers and I'm on to the producers, because at some point it has to be someone's job to hire writers who can write.

I'm in awe of your ability to be coherent about something that makes me so very incoherent in frustration and puzzlement.

I think Stargate plays to this cowboys-and-Indians fantasy where the rough and tumble real men are the heroes and the pantywaists from back East don't have what it takes to win

That's why I loved early Daniel Jackson -- he was the moral center of early SG, and the military learned to trust his judgment. Alas, that's went by the wayside years ago. Now Rodney McKay is the moral center and, as much as I love Rodney (and I really really love Rodney), it's pretty skewed when he's your moral compass.

*sigh*

Hey! Safe move! I hope you find much success and happiness in your new home! And that you have more time for turning bad science fiction shows into brilliant fanfiction.