hth | "Harmony" + preemptive squeeing

I feel like I should say something belatedly about "Harmony," even though I have relatively little to say. Because what every discussion needs is MORE ME!

First, however, the *really important stuff.*

OMG I AM SO EXCITED ABOUT TOMORROW NIGHT!!!! I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS EPISODE SINCE BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED! I DON'T KNOW WHICH I'M MORE PSYCHED ABOUT, SPOILERY THING 1 OR SPOILERY THING 2 -- OH, WHO AM I KIDDING, TOTALLY SPOILERY THING 2! NO, WAIT, 1!!! BOTH! EEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, Mary's gonna strangle me if I don't stop running up to her randomly and saying, "YOU KNOW WHAT I'M EXCITED ABOUT?" She knows. She knows because I've been telling her all week long. And now you know, too.

IT'S TOMORROW, EEEEEEEEE!

EEEE!

General, from-the-air diagnosis: This episode reminded me a lot of "The Tower," except kind of if "The Tower" had been written by people with thumbs and basic cognitive skills -- i.e., it's the "Tower" that doesn't suck ass. It's hijinks on a faux medieval RenFest world with cheesecake in corsets whose names you (admit it) have already forgotten, and it's a total filler episode that affects nothing and no one and who really gives a damn, but it's pretty funny anyway and I'll buy it for a dollar. Why not.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it has its hatable elements. I want to fucking punch someone in the crotch every time they do that same fucking plotline where the Simple and Kindly Folk have some kind of wackily fanatical religious belief that our heroes prove is nothing more than their Simple and Kindly total misunderstanding of what Ancient technology is and where it comes from. They think it's the "blessings" of their "goddess" that makes the necklace glow! Are they not just PRECIOUS? I mean, not in the way where John and Rodney and everyone from Atlantis and also Vancouver and certainly the writers' room aren't totally smarter than them and ergo superior in every way that could possibly matter...but precious nonetheless! (In my head, I hear Wash saying, "Quaint!")

Look, I'm not saying it's not a plausible plotline. It is pretty reasonable that, if a pre-modern society were in possession of some mysterious device from beyond the stars, they'd think of it as a blessed and/or magical relic. And I'm not even really disagreeing with the concept that if an inanimate object suddenly displays new and unexpected properties, there's probably a physics-based reason that it does so; also true. I just loathe the way that religion *only* ever shows up in the Stargate universe when it's a silly mistake that backwards people make because they don't know any better. Because why would the advanced people of Earth ever have any religion or even consider the major issues of life in any way? Just because they're in the middle of a life-threatening war on two fronts and have relatively recently had all their assumptions about human history suddenly debunked by the realization that Earth was once an alien colony? Like that kind of thing ever leads to people showing up on the chaplain's doorstep. Oh, wait. We don't have a chaplain on this base. If we did, he'd probably turn out to be a hologram. (Just wait til Air Force brass finds out the Atlantis mission won't be raptured.)

Anyway, that's a pet peeve of mine, and they were jumping all over it with both feet in this episode. But other than that it was okay -- I liked Harmony herself. Who's writing the story where she turns up in a few years, eighteen and even more willful and gorgeous with the hots for Rodney, who is completely freaked out, ostensibly because he remembers her when she was just a little kid, but mostly because he instinctively knows that if he lets Harmony have her way with him, he will never, ever win a single relationship argument for the rest of his natural life. And that is definitely one of the circles of hell for Rodney: a life spent losing arguments, even when he's so totally in the right! But also, she's eighteen and hot and dead set on getting her way and she's worshipped him for years, and he has no ability to say no to that! Nothing in Rodney's life has prepared him to say *no* to that. Seriously -- who's writing that story?!?

I like to keep a couple of McShep shippers on my friendslist so I can check in with them after episodes to find out what I apparently completely missed, and this week's episode was apparently brought to you by the plot device "triangulation" -- which makes me think I don't even know what that means, because I thought triangulation is where you have a character who sublimates his desire for another character by awkwardly forcing and/or submitting to a romance with a third character who resembles a safer version of the character he really wants. And I gather that was supposed to be John in this episode? Which would've been more clear to me, I think, if John had evinced even the tiniest bit of interest in *either* of his traveling companions, and not entirely in getting out of this shitty mission he never wanted to be on and going home in one piece. Actually, I thought it was pretty awesome that John did have the same vaguely exhausted, vaguely fed up sort of affection for Harmony that he does for Rodney -- but I don't know that I thought he was sublimating anything, or attaching any feelings to Harmony that he isn't perfectly open about already attaching to Rodney: to wit, vaguely exhausted, vaguely fed up affection.

Rodney, on the other hand, is a whole separate story.

I don't know if the writers do this on purpose, or if it's just so deeply encoded in their geek DNA that they can't help themselves, but either way, I never cease to be amused by it. Rodney has projected onto John Sheppard all of his assumptions about what he thinks coolness and masculinity are all about. This is, mind you, totally in spite of the fact that John isn't especially cool or all that manly. But he does have a hairstyle of some kind and kind of a slouchy, smoking-in-the-boys-room way of standing there and he does use physical violence to save Rodney's life on a regular basis, so the whole bundle of things that Rodney has always believed go along with being attractive and cool and badass and well-liked, he now associates with John Sheppard. Who is...some of those things, some of the time.

And when I say "projection," please be assured, I'm talking about in the textbook sense, the psychological sense, where you operate as if the Other is not an individual in their own right, but a blank screen playing out a range of attributes you either covet or fear in yourself and usually both. In Rodney's case, it sometimes manifests as contempt ("every problem has a *military* solution in your world, doesn't it?"), but much more often manifests in this really peculiar envy he has, where he talks about John's life as if it's just one big nonstop whirl of adulation, adventure, and free ass. Even though what John does on his day off is badger the one friend who feels sorry enough for him to go along with it to drive golf balls off the pier and crush beer cans on his forehead. Clearly *nothing* fun ever happens in John's world, and yet no amount of actual data will ever convince Rodney of this.

I suppose it could be that we're supposed to take Rodney at his word when he tells Harmony about all the women who fall for John -- I mean, maybe it all happens off-screen? But honestly, when was the last time in canon that anyone did *anything* because John asked her to? Who *are* all these alien babes that Rodney says are always swooning at John's feet? The last two women he had jack shit to do with who weren't part of the main cast were Laren (who was obviously using him and then totally gave him the, "no, really, I'll call you") and, oh yeah, the chick from the Tower (who was just as obviously, and pretty much without pretense, using him for his DNA -- although she did have that friend who seemed to dig him for his own sake, the one who grabbed his ass, not that Rodney was there for that). John's preternatural sway over all the women who "fall for his good looks and charm" or what the fuck ever -- when does that happen? I think you can make a case that *two* women have fallen for John, one in first season and one in second. The rest appear to have either hit the cutting room floor, or more likely, exist solely in Rodney's imagination.

But Rodney has that *thing* that geek guys have, that vague suspicion of the All-American Jock combined with a deep-seated, intractible belief that those guys lead utterly charmed lives and that *they, too* would lead utterly charmed lives if they just had all the qualities that genetics unfairly doled out to other people instead. And the All-American Jock, in his mind, is played by the closest honest to God hero Rodney has at hand. In the great drama that Rodney is sure his life is, he *knows* John would be cast in the Keanu Reeves role, and that Rodney himself would totally unfairly receive third billing. This drives him insane. It also really, really makes him want to *be* John Sheppard, in ways that he would never in a million years admit.

And the thing about projection is that it's not hard at *all* for it to lead to attraction, and even obsession -- because if you've assigned someone else all the qualities you don't think you can have, well, the next best thing to having all those qualities is having that person. Rodney wants to be John Sheppard. Rodney wants John Sheppard's approval. If you believe that Rodney has an *iota* of bisexuality to him, you know there has to be a part of him that wants John to want him. The closer John will let himself be pulled in, the less distance there is between Rodney and all this stuff that Rodney hates not having for himself -- the coolness, the ability to win people over, the casual bravery, the sangfroid, the non-receding hairline and the combat skills (all geeks secretly want to be combat monsters).

The problem is that he's never really going to get it, because John Sheppard is unwinnable in that way. You can't *get* him, you can't *have* him, because John is not the kind of person who can let himself be had. He's a good person and a loyal person, but he's not really a person who's into merging in that way with anybody else -- and even if he were, it doesn't actually work like that. John doesn't even *have* all of those qualities, and whether he did or not, he's not able to magically bestow them on Rodney. Projection isn't an actual therapeutic strategy, it's an illusion. You have to actually *have* that stuff; it doesn't come to you by association, bequeathed to you through your closeness with somebody else. There's a psychologist named James Hollis who theorizes five stages of projection: 1) you completely believe that your projections are absolutely and objectively true of the Other, 2) you realize there is this vast gap between who you *wanted* the Other to be and who he actually is, which you attempt to fix by changing the person, trying to stuff him back into the box that you invented and were comfortable with, 3) you actually *look* at the Other and see him for the first time as his own whole person, the person he actually is, not as the person you wish he were, 4) you stop doing it, because it's ungood for you and your relationship, 5) you finally figure out what it is you were projecting onto that person and why you felt so sure you needed to do that, what it really is about *yourself* that you were unconsciously trying to work out.

(Now that I stop and think about it, I think projection explains...rather a lot about fandom, actually. Huh.)

Anyway! The point is that part of the process is *not,* "then he sleeps with you and falls in love with you and you totally complete each other." It's not even, "then he invites you over to play video games and watch his secret Dr. Who stash and totally tells you you can be BFFs now" (which is what I think Rodney wants in canon). That's not...you know, how it actually works. We just wish it were, because it's a hell of a lot easier to get someone to like us than it is to work on our own issues. So even if Rodney *could* convince John to fall wildly in love with him, he'd just end up pitching headfirst into stage 2, where he doesn't like himself any better than before and he's frustrated and let down because John isn't made of magic like Rodney has hyped himself into believing. Thank God he's already on board with the whole "therapy" thing, is all I'm saying.

Er...that's what I got out of "Harmony." I mean, it was my theory previous to "Harmony" as well, but this pretty much sealed the deal. I pretty much read the whole episode as a big song and dance number about Rodney's whole messy, unconscious knot of resentment/envy/fascination surrounding John, with a big starchy side-dish of John's utter obliviousness. The nice thing about this read on the episode, is that it actually gives the episode something of a purpose. You can read Harmony as this kind of emanation of Rodney's own personality, trying to figure out how to be a leader, how to be heroic -- beginning with that kind of knee-jerk assumption that the heroic leader looks like John (her conviction that he's wise and gentle and noble is no less misguided than Rodney's conviction that he's cool: they're both projecting all *over* the place), but over the course of the episode deciding that she doesn't NOT like who Rodney actually is, and ending by withdrawing her false assumptions about John and declaring herself for Rodney, whom she sees as the actual hero of the piece. It's kind of like a little hint that such a thing is possible -- if someone *like* Rodney can decide that he's an authentic hero in and of himself with no pieces missing, then theoretically *Rodney himself* can decide that he's capable of authentic heroism and doesn't need to win anything that's in anyone else's possession.

I mean, it's not going to happen, because Rodney wouldn't be half so entertaining if he had all his shit worked out. Like all tv characters, he will continue to suffer for our amusement. We serve a strange mistress, here in fandom.

Christ almighty, I typed for two hours about fucking "Harmony". There is pretty much NO TELLING how much blood I'm going to squeeze out of the stone that is "Outcast." I could be here for weeks, y'all.

ALSO, DID I MENTION IT'S TOMORROW? EEEEEEEEE!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

What an excellent, excellent analysis, and interesting, and all sorts of other positive adjectives.

And absolutely about projection. The whole romance industry is built on to this concept of finding the ideal that can use to plug up all the holes (nudgenudgewinkwink) that exist - a people jigsaw puzzle where parts make a whole. But of course people don't work that way and nobody can really be someone elses saviour, and the best that you can hope for is to lean really hard on the pieces and smoosh them into something vaguely compatable which is also a fantastic way to cheat when you've got way too many blue pieces.

I've only had half a glass of wine - honest! :)

That's another reason why I've been hanging out for this epsiode, because there's so much of John that's the unattainable hero (regardless of how much geek seeps through from time and time) and I'm hoping that Outcast will chip away that and show more of the human being underneath. It's stripping apart the ferris wheel and having a look at the gears and what makes it tick.

Thanks! I'm hoping the same thing about Outcast -- I mean, for God's sake, it's been four years. Who the hell IS this guy? I feel like the writers are just now getting to Stage 3 with their own protagonist! *g*

I feel like the writers are just now getting to Stage 3 with their own protagonist! *g*

Oh god yes. In some ways I like it, because an enigma can be that much more interesting when you get handed slivers bit by bit, but to get an episode where hopefully there will be a whole lot more pieces for the jigsaw puzzle is fab.

I'm so exited about the next episode too, even though I'm uncompletely unspoiled about the specifics.

WRT Harmony, I didn't even find their custom weird or like a religion. I mean, beyond informing the queen about the weapons system and maybe making sure she can operate it or something like that, which was maybe the origin of the custom, it also tests for the lineage being legitimate, which makes sense for a monarchy. The Ancient gene isn't common, after all. And it's not like anyone can reasonably expect them to have that much solid knowledge of the Ancients after ten thousand years. We didn't manage to salvage a significant portion of the libraries from merely two thousand years ago, and forgot how to read most of the writing that's older, and that's without space vampires eating us.

I didn't even find their custom weird or like a religion

Except that it's exactly like a religion, because it's a pilgrimage to the Temple of Larris in order to meditate and "pray to be endowed with the knowledge and power to govern." It *doesn't* inform the queen about anything -- she has no idea what the weapons system is (she thinks it's a monster who will only attack enemies of the throne) and she doesn't believe John when he says things have gone haywire because it's a malfunctioning machine; she continues to insist that it has nothing to do with machines and everything to do with whether the gods have judged her worthy. She has an entirely misplaced *religious faith* in technology she doesn't even recognize as technology at all.

And like I said, you're very right, that could certainly happen! It's realistic. It just bugs me that the only time religion ever comes up in the SGA universe, it's so the show can debunk it, either by proving that it's *really* the effects of a machine (this episode, planet Kid-Kill) or *really* just alien beings playing gods (Sanctuary, the Ori and the Goa'uld back home) or *really* kind of stupid waste of time (Elizabeth dressing down Halling in 38 Minutes for getting in her way, the Athosians' faith in the Ancestors, whom we know do not actually respond to their prayers at all). And religion is always something that less evolved, non-Earth people have, while we have engineering, psychology, and at best maybe meditation.

Yeah, that's true. I guess it doesn't bother me that much as a pattern in itself (as opposed to how it is connected to other annoying and/or offensive things with how other cultures are depicted), because as a non-spiritual atheist I see religions and spiritual/supernatural believes similarly. I mean, were I actually confronted with aliens with powers like the Ori/Ancients, I'd be rather more inclined to believe in religions than I am now, because they have superpowers and get energy from prayers, and they appear and give you proof of their might, they can't die either, and they have made humans look/evolve like them and distributed them over three galaxies, which is quite god-like for all intents and purposes, so I always find it hilariously funny when the SG people claim those are "false" gods like the Goa'uld (which I could see as an argument against those), opposed to some kind of "real religion/god" that is not based on anything but "faith" in its supposed existence.

Yeah, it's possible you have to actually be a religious person yourself in order to find it as actively offensive as I do. *g*

You're right about the weird definition of "real god" in the Stargate universe, though. Why on earth define "real" as interchangeable with "invisible"? The whole purpose of religion is to have contact with the Divine, to make the sacred *less invisible.* That's not a sign of failure! There's an excellent case to be made that the Ori are perfectly "real" gods -- they're just crappy gods! That gets into the whole Phillip Pullman territory, where the significant question isn't "is God real?" but "is there some reason we should care?"

Actually if I had to live in the SG universe and wasn't lucky enough to be in the little earth protective reservation/neutral space or whatever this agreement between the galactic powers initially was, I'd pick the Ori over being eaten by the Wraith (in particular in one of their active cycles) or being forced into slavery by some greedy Goa'uld.

Sure, the mandatory worshipping hours suck, and you have to be cautious or you may get lynched by the religious blockwarts for fundamental dissent, otoh they don't seem to care that much beyond the worship requirements, like you don't have to build pyramids for them or host a snake parasite nor are they at war with each other using you as cannon fodder, and the general ethics of Origin didn't seem particularly draconian beyond the daily worship requirement.

Considering that as ascended beings they might be actually all knowing they don't seem to micromanage the lives of their subjects that much, seeing how there is an anti-Ori underground. And we don't see Ori followers die earlier from giving them prayer energy afaik, so the only thing that might be hurt might be a chance for real ascension if their "path" was actively misleading, and well, the chances for normal humans to ascend aren't that great anyway.

I bet the Ori really kicked themselves that they decided to expand into the Milky Way, just recently free from the Goa'uld, rather than present themselves as saviors for eliminating Pegasus' Wraith problem via Prior intervention for their expansion plans. As a Pegasus resident likely to become a meal quite soon I'd be *thrilled* to devote two hours of worship per day or whatever in exchange for not being eaten.

Why on earth define "real" as interchangeable with "invisible"?

Because they wrote themselves into a corner by making the Goa'uld gods. Essentially, they were saying that all of those the deities weren't really real. Oddly enough, though, none of the Goa'uld ever took the form of the Middle Eastern monotheistic deity, because all of the "traditional values" would have gone nuts over the implication that their god wasn't any more real than those of Egypt, Greece China, or Scandanavia.

Plus, there's the fact that part of the mystique of that particular deity is based on the fact that no one can say what he's supposed to look like--just like he doesn't have a name other than "God".

At least on SG1 it was our main characters realizing that their own religion and all their gods were false. Well, in the early season.

This portrayal of religion on SGA--well, it just ties into my American imperialism on SGA rant.

As a small point, Harmony did say that the gods would make her pendant glow and it had nothing to do with machines. So, clearly, some sort of deist religion.

True. I guess it just didn't ping me as particularly religious for a ceremony, because it didn't seem any more involved than a by rote invocation of a deity. I mean, as far as justifications for monarchies go it is been the norm to say that the monarch was granted that right by god through being part of the royal lineage, just like forewords to constitutions or oaths mention god and so on.

It's so common that you notice the absence more than the presence of such phrasings, like when one of our previous chancellors left out the bit mentioning god in his oath of office that got special mention in the press. But that doesn't make the bit where the god is called upon to justify government part of the actual religion or a religious ceremony itself. Nor do they necessarily have to believe the thing has actual powers to follow their tradition. It's like, the custom to touch something for an oath that we have as well, comes afaik from the belief that the magic of the thing would only work through that touch. Very few people today think there are actual magical powers conferred to make the oath more valid, yet stuff gets still touched. And that is without any actual glow to show off even.

So I didn't go from them saying that the gods somehow bless their reign through touching a glowing pendant or whatever to thinking "oh, they have some strange ancient-artifact worshipping theocracy in which the machine is really central" or anything.

(Now that I stop and think about it, I think projection explains...rather a lot about fandom, actually. Huh.)

This is perhaps not what you mean, but I attribute a lot of my good relationship skills to fandom, from both positive examples of grown up behaviour and cautionary tales of co-dependent madness.

Seriously.

I could be here for weeks, y'all.

If you gotta, you gotta.

Observing people in the wild is without a doubt the best learning experience there is. *g*

Who *are* all these alien babes that Rodney says are always swooning at John's feet?

They're in the Atlantis fanfic stories Rodney writes. (Can you be a fan of your own life?) He writes those stories where John's always getting the team into trouble by smiling at the chief's daughter, who then feels jilted when he won't marry her, and then the shotguns come out and they're all running for the gate and Rodney gets to harangue him for being Kirk. Again. Because poor Rodney doesn't even get the girl in his own fantasies. It's so sad.

(He also writes the stories where he makes a mistake and everyone hates him and tries to feed him lemon chicken, and he contemplates suicide by orange juice but instead he just goes to China, and then everybody's sorry as they realize, with deep sadness and regret, what they've lost, but it's too late. Those stories are his favorites.)

I'VE BEEN WONDERING who writes all those stories! Suddenly it all begins to make sense....

And if you can be fannish about your own life, Rodney is the guy who will manage it. *g*

Have you ever seen Boa vs. Python? I've always thought this movie was the novel Rodney's secretly writing on his hard drive. He gets the bimbo blond? All the military guys are idiots and get themselves killed? His sister died tragically at a young age? It's so his Mary Sue.

*dies* This explains SO MUCH.

Wow. Lots to think about there. Thanks for writing it up!

Hey, no problem! Glad you found it interesting.

I think you may actually have triangulated them ...with John as the girl :)

Seriously, though, I like your reading of Rodney, and I *know* I'm projecting and *thus* desiring...and in an utterly idiotic way, bc dude, what the fuck would I *want* a military guy for (even if he's an officer :)...

Though isn't what happens in fanfic that we're desiring in projection by pretending we like what we think there is while unconsciously hoping there's something else? That is, I don't think the stories are that far off where Rodney *thinks* he wants the cool guy while really wanting someone in a relationship who is more like him...thus the geek!Sheppard trope. And that'd kind of explain why much of fandom likes Sheppard very very gay these days...because it gives him that external incentive where Rodney has his self delusional projection...

I think you may actually have triangulated them ...with John as the girl :)

Oh, my God, you're so right! "Harmony" is a big ol' Rodney/Rodney love story -- all he has to do is get John out of the way first! How great is that? *g*

I think you're giving most fanfic more credit for complexity than it deserves -- I think most of it, like het romance novels, exists to glorify the myth of projection/possession rather than to get the characters through it to a real relationship of intimacy. Not that there aren't those stories -- there are! But like in any genre, the stories that use genre convention to deal with the realities of human emotions and needs are a lot less frequent than the stories that use genre conventions because they stroke the particular kinks of genre fans and are fun. I like both kinds of stories, so that's cool with me. *g* But "what happens in fanfic" is only *sometimes* about mining the deep layers -- it's not a given, IMO.

LOL...doubles FTW

You're right. I think it's the question between stories where we're actually getting a real character in John (who is more geeky and awkward) and those that project right along with Rodney...John the Kirk!like football player...

And that'd kind of explain why much of fandom likes Sheppard very very gay these days...because it gives him that external incentive where Rodney has his self delusional projection...

Ohhh, very good point.

I must admit I see fandom!John as being the projection of not just being gaygaygay, but being the stand in for a female het character. He's the pretty princess, written mainly as the 'bottom', and is sexually uninterested in women - I wonder if the projection is to BE John while dating Rodney, just as a bit of psych 101 which probably isn't worth 5 cents. :)

See, and for the longest time I always thought we were Rodney and wanted John...ok, *I* want John, and while no genius am certainly closer to Rodney, the whiny, overintellectual, not quite built, slightly socially awkward person than military boy.

But that's the beauty of slash, isn't it? We get to be and have :D

I think these things tend to go in waves depending on what the flavour of the month is (ahh the hive mind). I remember when I first got into the buffyverse Spike/Xander had Xander predominately as the pretty, pretty lady!man, and then a year later it was Spike, heh.

I *definitely* think that fandom is made up of a lot of self-projection onto both Sheppard and Rodney (for example, the trope of John as Sekrit Math Genius, as opposed to fairly bright guy -- *we want* to be the ones who can keep up with the way Rodney thinks so that he likes and respects us!) I don't know if particular authors skew one way or another, or if it's more common to choose the Other you want to use for each particular story -- that would be interesting to know.

It's the beauty of slash in some ways, but I still maintain it's the root of an awful lot of ugliness in slash, too, including our inability to deal with characters of color. White writers don't see them as viable "screens" -- they can't be us because everything in our lives has taught us to view them as Not Us (very different from gender, where girls grow up encouraged to identify with the male heroes of the books, movies, and tv that they're exposed to; we have those skills, it's easy for us).

If what we're Being is us, and what we're Having is simultaneously us, doesn't that mean that we're operating in a fictional universe made up entirely of me, me, me, and more me? Not that there's not a value to self-insertion, but there's a limit to its psychological usefulness, too, I think.

But isn't that fantasy at its best?

My psychoanalysis is a bit rusty, but I remember theories that pretty much posit all love like that...and fantasy *is* effectively a me-space.

[I actually think that part of the hatred for Mary Sues comes from short circuiting that very mechanism]

But yes, I think that a large number of characters will get excluded for not being those identifiable screens...

See, and I always thought of Rodney as the projected character--the geek, who is validated and redeemed by the love of the cool jock. I freely admit that's why I ship McKay and Sheppard. I want to see math club nerd get the star of the football team, just once.

When I first got into fandom I would have put large sums of money on that set up, and it may just be my flist has skewered things and doesn't reflect what's going on in fandom proper, but a lot of the stories/meta I've read come across as John being the pretty stand in and Rodney being the attainable boyfriend.

I'm glad you're squeeing about tonight. I'm all fretful because I fear it will suck (http://mecurtin.livejournal.com/545683.html) really hard.

I don't quite see how your theory of Rodney projecting onto John squares with the fact that Rodney *knows* John spends his spare time playing D&D, video golf, or chess with *him*, or reading comic books.

Nah, it won't suck! I mean, yes, you're right, it'll totally joss the extra-canonical promo material that we've all been happy to treat as canon up til now -- but, eh, that's the perils of live canon! Things come up that joss your old stories. *g* Keeps life exciting.

It squares because projection is inherently illogical -- that's how people can do it for years. Obviously I don't know anything about John that Rodney doesn't also know, but that's no guarantee that Rodney conceptualizes John in a way that matches the facts. The reality is, people conceptualize other people *all the time* in spite of the facts. That's why they go to psychologists to fix these issues -- because they're issues of the irrational and the subconscious! That's why Rodney can keep saying that John cuts a swath through the alien ladies, *even though* he should rationally know just as well as we do that he doesn't. The other example that springs to mind is "Common Ground," where Rodney tries to give this William Wallace pep talk to the soldiers on the grounds that John isn't here to do it -- when we've *never* seen John pace around barking mission directives like that before, and actually imagining it is pretty hilarious. *Actual John* doesn't do that, but it fits with the concept in Rodney's head of the Fearless Leader that he associates with John even where the reality doesn't match up.

I know there's more, but I'd have to go digging for examples. Ask me a Ronon question -- I have much, much better instarecall on that topic! *g*

projection is inherently illogical
*coughs* Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill *coughs*

You can read Harmony as this kind of emanation of Rodney's own personality, trying to figure out how to be a leader, how to be heroic

Yes, but in fact, one of the things McSheppers like me like is the way in which you can see the characters moving closer together, like, they ARE becoming (or revealing) what they project on the other person. So as much as John says, "Geeky?" in his rolling-eyes way to Rodney, he's also becoming more out about his comic book collection and his brainpower and the fact that he seems to think video golf is nearly as cool as real golf and that he knows hitchhiker references. And Rodney, even as he's looking at John like Coolness Incarnate, was able to say "Lock and Load" and provide pretty decent cover for that necklace-stealing queen-boy, you know?

As one of the triangulation people, for me it was the way in which Harmony mediated the relationship; her overt crush on John seemed to out Rodney's only-slightly-less-obvious crush on John, especially since there was a direct comparison made between her and Rodney as brats; her "you don't not like me! You like me!" comment to Rodney seemed to be much more the sort of thing John might someday say to Rodney, in a world where that was possible, especially since Harmony was an obvious foil to John not only as the "One True Queen" but as two leaders who have to sacrifice their needs to the people. And the brave One True Queen ends up crushing hard on Rodney, even AFTER spending the whole episode bitching at him and threatening to have him whipped and all that. See what I mean?

So what you're really saying is that Harmony was us? She was John and she was Rodney and she desired John and she desired Rodney....

and where's my conduit icon when I need it??? :D

Merry told me before I ever saw the episode that she was fandom incarnate *g*.

one of the things McSheppers like me like is the way in which you can see the characters moving closer together, like, they ARE becoming (or revealing) what they project on the other person

Yeah, definitely! I think they're both moving closer as the seasons go by toward their better selves, and I certainly think their relationship with each other has a lot to do with that -- definitely the best McShep stories I've read really pick up on that and play it through. Where I part ways with the shippers, of course, is that I think there are *multiple* things about the past several years that are producing some of those effects -- I think John's increasingly lovely intimacy with Teyla is doing as much as or more than anything to ground him emotionally and get him past the awkwardness he feels at being seen and known; I think Elizabeth's confidence in Rodney, given his idolization of Elizabeth, has gone just as far toward making Rodney suspect he might be an all right person as John's friendship has. Just to name two elements! I get a little bored with the view of canon where nothing is important to John and Rodney or changes them in any way except each other -- which is not at all to say their effect on each other hasn't been wonderful and likeable as well, in many cases. (I do think they sometimes seem to bring out the worst in each other, too -- but that's not exactly uncommon in intimate and loving relationships. Nobody can make you crazy like your friends and family can!)

her overt crush on John seemed to out Rodney's only-slightly-less-obvious crush on John

GOD, YES.

And the brave One True Queen ends up crushing hard on Rodney, even AFTER spending the whole episode bitching at him and threatening to have him whipped and all that. See what I mean?

I do see what you mean, and I think the differences in interpretation rest on whether you see Harmony as a kind of double for John in her set-apart Specialness (as you do), or for Rodney in her bullheaded but ultimately good-hearted self-aggrandization (as I do). Like I said to Cath above, to me it's a story about Rodney using his crush on John as a stepping-stone toward being able to fall in love with *Rodney.*

Both of us, without a doubt, are thinking about all this MUCH, MUCH harder than the writers ever did. *g*

No question we're thinking about it harder, but the thing is--there were moments in the show of deliberate foiling going on: i.e. John is like Harmony AND Rodney is like Harmony, hence the perfect triangle. The beauty about the writers is that they don't seem to realize or care about the implications of that: you CAN'T say "only the true queen must do it" and then have John do it without sniggering; you can't have John point out that Rodney is like Harmony and then have Harmony propose to John; you can't have John bonding with Harmony about how hard it is to be a leader and then not have it mean anything when Harmony sees behind Rodney's more annoying qualities to choose Rodney as Her King. *g*

Vis a vis Elizabeth and Teyla--well,the thing is, I admire you for making those readings, I DO, and I just support you in it 100 percent. For me, thinking too much about Weir or Teyla or--well, women or people of color as women or people of color as the show portrays them more generally--makes me unhappy, so I do choose to wear my Rodney and John filter most of the time. But I don't want to make it harder for those of you doing the noble work--or having fun while--recuperating and reimagining these other, valuable relationships; it's just not a ton of fun for ME.

Oh, I understand what you're saying about the headaches and general wtf-ery of dealing with the women in SGA -- and certainly we all choose what to take on and not to take on! You notice how I've never written more than three lines on Elizabeth in my entire life? That's because I don't like Elizabeth, and I don't want to. *g*

My concern is -- and this isn't specifically about you or anything, I'm just on the topic now -- that fandom has this way of, when it doesn't want to deal with female characters for whatever noble or ignoble reasons...making them go away, so that the fannish version of the show is even less inclusive than the not-all-that-inclusive-to-start-with canon version. Because as awful and unhappy-making as their use of women generally is on this show, I freely grant them this: they've set up a canon where the male protagonists genuinely like and deeply respect their female compatriots. And there's a whole world out there full of men who don't have any female friends and can't think of any particular use for women except naked, and these are not those guys.

It's not what we wanted, and it's not as good as what we deserve, but it's not nothing, either. In some small ways, in our culture, it's still revolutionary -- all these cross-gender friendships, all the ways in which they say and show that they look up to the women around them and value their company. And it causes me physical pain when fandom deliberately negates or erases that one important thing, that one single way that television really is more gender-radical than many people's RL experiences, by altering the canon so that women are irrelevant to the men. I'm not just picking on this fandom -- even Buffy fandom, for Christ's sake, did a brisk business in Xander stories where he didn't appear to give a good goddamn about Buffy or Willow anymore. Buffy and Willow! The two most significant friendships of his entire life in canon, and they vanished without a murmur in a certain segment of the fandom. XF was famous for slash stories that attempted to "cure" Mulder of his desire for Scully's companionship and approval.

Television treats women badly, there's no doubt about it. But we shoot the injured, and it makes me so fucking miserable -- it just sends me into the worst kind of despair. But, like I said, I'm just rambling now -- has nothing to do with you specifically or what you do. 3 Lovers is still one of my favorite John/Teyla explorations ever, for example, and while of course I wish you'd apply your laser-sharp insight to other characters and other relationships more often, like I said, everyone has to choose what's in their zone of interest as a writer and what's not; it's silly to imagine you can choose for someone else!

Both of us, without a doubt, are thinking about all this MUCH, MUCH harder than the writers ever did.

Here here!

My problem with "Harmony" was pretty simple: I didn't care. The Rodney and John Show + small child that I wanted to drop down a well + weak plot + tromping around yet another Planet Vancouver = a big yawn for me.

But.

I'm practically bouncing out of my skin for "Outcast". I've already got ideas for more than one episode tag. John backstory + John and Ronon on Earth = WIN!

Rodney wouldn't be half so entertaining if he had all his shit worked out.

One of my very first thoughts about Stargate: Atlantis when it started was that I loved Rodney the cowardly hero, but eventually, by dint of having to be at least somewhat heroic in an ongoing series, he would grow as a person and get his shit together and then he wouldn't be interesting. Or, conversely, he would remain whiny and self-centered and I'd end up hating him for not growing as a character. So far they've managed to walk the line pretty well, I think.

I found this bookmarked on delicious and I'm so glad I did. What an excellent analysis of the episode! I usually stay away from SGA meta because it seems everything I can find is through such a heavy McShep filter it makes me want to scream.

Also loved the comment above about fandom shafting female characters even more than canon does... It's sad but true. (And in SGA, really, everyone gets shafted compared to the behemoth that is McShep.)

*friends*

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