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Warning: the following is not nice. It is not just, it is not kind, it is not respectful, and it may not even be sane. I may regret it in the morning, I don't know.
In clicking randomly through lj links this evening, I ran across a post-ep entry from somebody whose name I know from SGA fandom -- I specify that because I want to say she's not someone I have some kind of pre-existing grudge toward; I really only recognize the name and know nothing about her, really (I'm even only assuming it's a "her," out of statistical likelihood). And even though I've been frothing at the mouth for an hour now, I'm not trying to put her in particular on the spot for Fandom Crimes writ large, which is the reason I'm not naming her or being super-specific; I suppose she'd recognize herself, and maybe some other people would, too, but mainly I'm hoping it's anonymous enough to let me vent without putting her in an embarrassing position.
That said.
There was a person, right, a relatively prolific writer of and about Sheppard/McKay, and she'd seen an episode, and the episode contained some pretty obscure potential subtext between two characters that she particularly dislikes as a pairing -- enough that she felt it might give people an excuse to write fic about this pairing. And to paraphrase, she basically said, Oh, God, I hate CharacterZ/CharacterQ, and lately everyone seems to love them, and this will only get those other fans all excited. Maybe I'll just unsubscribe from sga_noticeboard until I don't have to worry about seeing all those CharacterZ/CharacterQ stories floating around.
And I don't exactly know where to begin, but I just -- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom. YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING. You are everywhere. Your pairing is everywhere. Are we even *on* the same sga_noticeboard? People are writing you literally a dozen or more stories PER DAY, all about your darling lovelies. YOU HAVE FUCKING WON, ALL RIGHT? Now get off our fucking backs!
I don't know if there will be a mad upsurge in Z/Q fic, but I'm pretty sure that if so, "mad upsurge"=maybe five or six stories MAX, TOTAL written by X/Q fans in response to Episode T. But your VIRGIN FUCKING EYEBALLS aren't capable of doing what we plebes do every day of our lives and PAGING DOWN your flist, past the links to the stories you don't want to read? You're too goddamn good for that? The mere knowledge that other people are out there writing their crazy Other Pairings is so upsetting for you that you have to go lie down with a cold compress until it's over?
Well, lucky fucking you -- because it will be over. If I want to unsub and come back when everybody's writing what I want and not writing what I don't want, I'll be gone for a factor of FOREVER.
And you know what? I do truly think that's what a lot of people want. I think there's a stratum of this fandom that would like people like me to just go away, because all we're doing is breathing the oxygen of the McKay/Sheppard people. And it's not just that they don't like our pairings and they don't care what we do -- I've never read a Lorne/Parrish story in my life, because I don't care and I don't want to; I'm not saying everyone needs to be a fan of everything. It goes way past that. It's not "well, whatever you want, I'll be over here doing my thing," it's this attitude like we are an actual drag to have co-existing within the same fandom. You have to UNSUB? SERIOUSLY? So you don't accidentally read our HEADERS?
I've been doing this fandom thing for many years now (10 years! Jesus Christ!), and I feel like I've had a really successful fangirl career. I'm not the best writer in the fandom; I'm probably not even the tenth best writer in the fandom, but those other ten girls are so fucking AWESOME that they deserve their spots in the sun, and in most cases I'm, no shit, the biggest fan they have. But I'm proud of what I write, and I get some of the best feedback on the planet -- I'm consistently amazed at the time and the attention that my little cadre of readers invests, time and again, in what I write. I'm happy being the kind of writer I am -- I mean, if I weren't, it's not like I'm too stupid to figure out what kind of thing I should be writing to get more attention. If I needed universal validation, I wouldn't have spent the last month of my life writing a giant fucking het epic with an OFC; the story before that I wouldn't have shot John; I'd do a lot of things differently, if being in the mainstream of SGA fandom was my big goal. I love what I do and I wouldn't change it for the world, and I've never been less than humbled and amazed by the attention I do get. This is to say: I'm not on this Earth to win over the McShep brigade, and they could ignore me until the end of time and it really wouldn't phase me at all.
What leaves me shocked and hurt and angry isn't that there's a large segment of the fandom that doesn't care for/about what I do. It's that I genuinely feel like they want us gone -- like they feel that SGA fandom and all its associated pan-fandom space (like noticeboard, for example) is and should be and deserves to be the property of its largest contingent -- as if the fandom should be majority-rules and that those of us who are hanging around loving the fuck out of X/Q or A/C or O/P or whatever it is we're passionate about are basically in the way. We're a nuisance that they have no choice but to wait out, hoping that soon the fandom can go back to what they basically think it is anyway: the glee club for the John and Rodney Show.
And, you know, a huge part of me wants to do exactly that. The constant, steady, relentless drumbeat of OMG DON'T YOU JUST LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME?!!?11! is wearing enough as it is -- and I'm not even anti- the pairing. It's just like somebody trying to get you to eat strawberry shortcake seven times a day, every day of your life. Strawberry shortcake is *fine,* it's nice, I like it perfectly well, right up until the day when you hit that wall and all you can think is JESUS, SHUT THE FUCK UP, I'LL HURL ALL OVER THE FLOOR IF I SEE ONE MORE STRAWBERRY FUCKING SHORTCAKE. And that's sad, because it's a nice dessert, and McKay/Sheppard is a nice pairing (I have at least ten or twelve stories within it saved in my permanent collection of Bulletproof Fic that I read every time I need my comfort fix). Even if I had the power, I wouldn't want to stop people from digging on their favorite thing and I don't want to make them feel guilty for doing so, which is why I put 99% of the burden on myself. I avoid the places I know I can expect the especially shrill and piercing variety of squee that I know rubs me the wrong way. I choose what I click and don't click on. I tailor my Fandom Experience so that I stay as much as possible out of the situations that I know will set me off (obviously, I'm not successful every single day). And on the days when all of that feels impossible, like an umbrella in a hurricane, yeah, I consider severing my ties with this fandom.
But, you know, there's a lot that I'd miss, too. And I kind of like being the Loyal Opposition -- I think we're worth something, me and the rest of the fans who love our X/Q and our O/P and our other pairings that y'all think are weird and boring and squicky and totally violate the perfect purity of Rodney & John's eternal bliss. And basically, if we can slog along, hoping for our little moments, hoping this'll be the one day this week when one of our own will pop up with a story in our beloved pairing, patiently hitting our scroll button over and over and knowing that the charge we get will be even better for having had to wait for it and discover it -- then you can surely endure to have us around. And any suggestion that you can't endure it, or that you have to run and flee and hide from reminders that we exist -- well, that's just being a bad fucking winner.
There's such a thing as Carson fans in this fandom. There's such a thing as Teyla fans. There's such a thing as Elizabeth fans in this fandom. PLEASE BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY, WE HAVE ALL HAD A HARD YEAR OF IT. We've taken hit after hit, only to have people who write stories that suggest that John and Rodney live alone on a space station somewhere tell us that we're big whiners and anything short of being totally stoked about s4 is childish and unfair. If you can't possibly find it within yourself to be sympathetic allies, even though your guys still are and always will be the leads and you don't have to worry that you'll ever be in our position -- if you can't be our friends in this, please at least refrain from acting as if you resent the pieces of the fandom we've carved out for ourselves, and most of all refrain from suggesting that public SGA fandom space isn't large enough for all of us at once. Because we all know that you're not going anywhere. Nor should you have to.
Nor should we.
In clicking randomly through lj links this evening, I ran across a post-ep entry from somebody whose name I know from SGA fandom -- I specify that because I want to say she's not someone I have some kind of pre-existing grudge toward; I really only recognize the name and know nothing about her, really (I'm even only assuming it's a "her," out of statistical likelihood). And even though I've been frothing at the mouth for an hour now, I'm not trying to put her in particular on the spot for Fandom Crimes writ large, which is the reason I'm not naming her or being super-specific; I suppose she'd recognize herself, and maybe some other people would, too, but mainly I'm hoping it's anonymous enough to let me vent without putting her in an embarrassing position.
That said.
There was a person, right, a relatively prolific writer of and about Sheppard/McKay, and she'd seen an episode, and the episode contained some pretty obscure potential subtext between two characters that she particularly dislikes as a pairing -- enough that she felt it might give people an excuse to write fic about this pairing. And to paraphrase, she basically said, Oh, God, I hate CharacterZ/CharacterQ, and lately everyone seems to love them, and this will only get those other fans all excited. Maybe I'll just unsubscribe from sga_noticeboard until I don't have to worry about seeing all those CharacterZ/CharacterQ stories floating around.
And I don't exactly know where to begin, but I just -- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom. YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING. You are everywhere. Your pairing is everywhere. Are we even *on* the same sga_noticeboard? People are writing you literally a dozen or more stories PER DAY, all about your darling lovelies. YOU HAVE FUCKING WON, ALL RIGHT? Now get off our fucking backs!
I don't know if there will be a mad upsurge in Z/Q fic, but I'm pretty sure that if so, "mad upsurge"=maybe five or six stories MAX, TOTAL written by X/Q fans in response to Episode T. But your VIRGIN FUCKING EYEBALLS aren't capable of doing what we plebes do every day of our lives and PAGING DOWN your flist, past the links to the stories you don't want to read? You're too goddamn good for that? The mere knowledge that other people are out there writing their crazy Other Pairings is so upsetting for you that you have to go lie down with a cold compress until it's over?
Well, lucky fucking you -- because it will be over. If I want to unsub and come back when everybody's writing what I want and not writing what I don't want, I'll be gone for a factor of FOREVER.
And you know what? I do truly think that's what a lot of people want. I think there's a stratum of this fandom that would like people like me to just go away, because all we're doing is breathing the oxygen of the McKay/Sheppard people. And it's not just that they don't like our pairings and they don't care what we do -- I've never read a Lorne/Parrish story in my life, because I don't care and I don't want to; I'm not saying everyone needs to be a fan of everything. It goes way past that. It's not "well, whatever you want, I'll be over here doing my thing," it's this attitude like we are an actual drag to have co-existing within the same fandom. You have to UNSUB? SERIOUSLY? So you don't accidentally read our HEADERS?
I've been doing this fandom thing for many years now (10 years! Jesus Christ!), and I feel like I've had a really successful fangirl career. I'm not the best writer in the fandom; I'm probably not even the tenth best writer in the fandom, but those other ten girls are so fucking AWESOME that they deserve their spots in the sun, and in most cases I'm, no shit, the biggest fan they have. But I'm proud of what I write, and I get some of the best feedback on the planet -- I'm consistently amazed at the time and the attention that my little cadre of readers invests, time and again, in what I write. I'm happy being the kind of writer I am -- I mean, if I weren't, it's not like I'm too stupid to figure out what kind of thing I should be writing to get more attention. If I needed universal validation, I wouldn't have spent the last month of my life writing a giant fucking het epic with an OFC; the story before that I wouldn't have shot John; I'd do a lot of things differently, if being in the mainstream of SGA fandom was my big goal. I love what I do and I wouldn't change it for the world, and I've never been less than humbled and amazed by the attention I do get. This is to say: I'm not on this Earth to win over the McShep brigade, and they could ignore me until the end of time and it really wouldn't phase me at all.
What leaves me shocked and hurt and angry isn't that there's a large segment of the fandom that doesn't care for/about what I do. It's that I genuinely feel like they want us gone -- like they feel that SGA fandom and all its associated pan-fandom space (like noticeboard, for example) is and should be and deserves to be the property of its largest contingent -- as if the fandom should be majority-rules and that those of us who are hanging around loving the fuck out of X/Q or A/C or O/P or whatever it is we're passionate about are basically in the way. We're a nuisance that they have no choice but to wait out, hoping that soon the fandom can go back to what they basically think it is anyway: the glee club for the John and Rodney Show.
And, you know, a huge part of me wants to do exactly that. The constant, steady, relentless drumbeat of OMG DON'T YOU JUST LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME?!!?11! is wearing enough as it is -- and I'm not even anti- the pairing. It's just like somebody trying to get you to eat strawberry shortcake seven times a day, every day of your life. Strawberry shortcake is *fine,* it's nice, I like it perfectly well, right up until the day when you hit that wall and all you can think is JESUS, SHUT THE FUCK UP, I'LL HURL ALL OVER THE FLOOR IF I SEE ONE MORE STRAWBERRY FUCKING SHORTCAKE. And that's sad, because it's a nice dessert, and McKay/Sheppard is a nice pairing (I have at least ten or twelve stories within it saved in my permanent collection of Bulletproof Fic that I read every time I need my comfort fix). Even if I had the power, I wouldn't want to stop people from digging on their favorite thing and I don't want to make them feel guilty for doing so, which is why I put 99% of the burden on myself. I avoid the places I know I can expect the especially shrill and piercing variety of squee that I know rubs me the wrong way. I choose what I click and don't click on. I tailor my Fandom Experience so that I stay as much as possible out of the situations that I know will set me off (obviously, I'm not successful every single day). And on the days when all of that feels impossible, like an umbrella in a hurricane, yeah, I consider severing my ties with this fandom.
But, you know, there's a lot that I'd miss, too. And I kind of like being the Loyal Opposition -- I think we're worth something, me and the rest of the fans who love our X/Q and our O/P and our other pairings that y'all think are weird and boring and squicky and totally violate the perfect purity of Rodney & John's eternal bliss. And basically, if we can slog along, hoping for our little moments, hoping this'll be the one day this week when one of our own will pop up with a story in our beloved pairing, patiently hitting our scroll button over and over and knowing that the charge we get will be even better for having had to wait for it and discover it -- then you can surely endure to have us around. And any suggestion that you can't endure it, or that you have to run and flee and hide from reminders that we exist -- well, that's just being a bad fucking winner.
There's such a thing as Carson fans in this fandom. There's such a thing as Teyla fans. There's such a thing as Elizabeth fans in this fandom. PLEASE BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY, WE HAVE ALL HAD A HARD YEAR OF IT. We've taken hit after hit, only to have people who write stories that suggest that John and Rodney live alone on a space station somewhere tell us that we're big whiners and anything short of being totally stoked about s4 is childish and unfair. If you can't possibly find it within yourself to be sympathetic allies, even though your guys still are and always will be the leads and you don't have to worry that you'll ever be in our position -- if you can't be our friends in this, please at least refrain from acting as if you resent the pieces of the fandom we've carved out for ourselves, and most of all refrain from suggesting that public SGA fandom space isn't large enough for all of us at once. Because we all know that you're not going anywhere. Nor should you have to.
Nor should we.
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 02:19 am (UTC)From:That's kind of the point. No matter how patient, accepting, whatever, sooner or later somebody's going to snap and say something stupid, irrational, or whatever in their journal.
In SGA I've seen John/Teyla fans do it, I've seen Sheppard/Weir fans do it, I've seen just about every single possible pairing fan out there do it. I multiship so I cross the slash, het and femslash lines of pairings and one thing holds constant for all of them.
They all make those kinds of bitchy comments sooner or later where they're convinced that the other pairing fans are, well, engaging in the perceptions you detailed above. Hell, I've seen it three or four times tonight on my flist alone (spin off, I'm guessing from this) and all from fans of varying pairings. Very few of them shared the same pairing.
And yeah, as someone who indulges in the odd bit of John/Rodney (and ironically, felt more accepted and encouraged by fans of that pairing than any of the others I dabble with combined), I was more slapped in the face by what you said than what you related this other person as saying cause, frankly, I've *heard* that stuff so many times and from so many different corners. It's par for the course. I hear it regularly said of John/Rodney but, I suppose, that's because it makes a bigger and therefore easier target.
I hate to say it but, with stuff like this but I just -- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom. YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING. ? Even the 'sane' John/Rodney fans are likely to feel like they just got poked in the eye.
God knows I do right now. I'm certainly not going to stop liking the pairing but, up until this point? I'd heard your name associated with nothing but good (and I would've loved to read the OC heavy fic. They are made of win) but right now? Not so much. I mean, I GET the frustration. God knows I've had that moment myself more than once. But, yeah, a little, er, well shell-shocked? :)
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 02:43 am (UTC)From:hate to say it but, with stuff like this but I just -- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom. YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING. ? Even the 'sane' John/Rodney fans are likely to feel like they just got poked in the eye.
I really wish people could take a step back and just realize-- if you're not part of that *wing of fandom* that she's talking about, then this rant is not about you, and Hth is not talking about you, and there's absolutely no reason-- no reason in the world-- to be taking this personally.
If you're not acting like people who don't "see the John/Rodney" are blind and stupid and shouldn't be watching the show, and if you aren't posting rants about how you can't even stand to see non-J/R fans post their stories in public places, then this rant isn't aimed at you.
But the thing is, a lot of people *are* acting like that-- acting like McShep ought to be *everyone's* OTP and if you don't see it, you're watching the show "wrong" and you might as well just leave the fandom because no one wants to hear about your non-J/R crap. Those are the people that Hth is talking about.
And I think it's pretty clear from the first 50 or so comments on her post that she is not the only one who perceives that there is a vocal segment of McShep fans-- not a *large* percentage, I don't think, but a very *loud* percentage-- who *are* purposely going around raining on other people's parades.
That goes beyond the usual "my ship vs. your ship" sniping, and it becomes a lot more hurtful than the usual sniping, when it comes from a group that is already in the majority and is never likely to have any serious competition in fandom.
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 02:53 am (UTC)From:And I did notice the 'wing' comment. However, it didn't really negate the fact that it the rest of the post is still going to impact on people who enjoy the pairing and aren't regularly engaging in that particular behavior.
This also goes beyond the usual 'my ship vs. your ship' sniping and people are going to object to it. Even if I didn't enjoy reading John/Rodney, if I were say a hardcore John/Teyla or Teyla/Lorne fan or whatever, I'd still be objecting to it.
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 03:41 am (UTC)From:And I did notice the 'wing' comment. However, it didn't really negate the fact that it the rest of the post is still going to impact on people who enjoy the pairing and aren't regularly engaging in that particular behavior.
Um... but how, exactly? How will it impact them?
If I make a post to my LJ saying "Some Rodney fans are assholes who think everything has to be about Rodney and they show this by behaving in X, Y and Z ways," then if you're *not acting in those ways*, it's not about you, even if you're a Rodney fan.
If I make a post saying "Some slash stories are misogynist because they include X, Y and Z things," if your slash stories don't include those things, then it's not about you, even if you're a slasher.
And if Hth says *some specific McShep fans* are acting like assholes, that has *nothing* to do with McShep fans in general. Yeah, you can take it personally if you absolutely want to, but... why? It's really not about McShep fans in general, and she couldn't have *made* that more clear, could she?
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 02:43 pm (UTC)From:Well, um, yeah? I don't know if this will help at all, but here's something to consider. Take the two turns of phrase (a) and (b):
(a) outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom
(b) that wing of McShep fandom that is outrageously self-centered, entitled, and a black-hole-of-need
It is a pretty robust finding that for most speakers (b) connotes much more clearly that a subgroup is being discussed than (a) does. This is such a simple distinction to make and the intuition is so strong for most speakers that when someone DOESN'T choose to make this more clear, many readers or listeners will skip right over that tiny little noun and instead just perceive the heavy string of adjectives that precedes it - and for good reason, right? After all, there's a way to make this more clear, but the speaker wasn't really focused on getting that exactly right - she was focused on getting her rant on. And that's all well and good, but rant is a broad spectrum weapon - difficult to focus unless you really take pains to do so.
This is not easy to get right. I have a lot of friends in the Potter fandom who ship Harry/Hermione. They were not the crazed shipper types seeking full-page ads to yell at JKR, and yet some of them have felt very besieged over the last couple of years. My point isn't that ranting should never happen (I enjoy a good rant as much as the next girl) but that expecting people to read between the lines of a rant and figure out exactly what the speaker meant instead of what she said is, I think, a bit much. After all, why should readers be expected to take greater pains than the writer?
For the OP: I am so far on the fringes of the SGA fandom (I've only written one little fic, and it's Weir/Zelenka, and nobody cares about them anyway) that I just don't know these crazy McShep fans; the ones I read seem pretty happy to me and are far more likely to just ignore pairings or characters that don't interest them than to waste time and energy having actual opinions about them. I don't doubt they exist, and I'm sorry they're pissing on your fandom parade. I don't really have much to say about the particular battle going on here, I just wanted to respond to the general tone of incredulity that's surrounding this particular point, because this seemed very obvious to me. Thanks!
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 06:42 pm (UTC)From:That's so true. And the nature of the beast is that -- for me, at least -- the moment when you're willing to rant about something is the moment when you're least able to step back and edit everything to a finely honed point. I've noticed that one profound drawback to doing something like this (I'm not sure I *entirely* regret having done it, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it) is that because everything seems so clear to you, it's very difficult to stand back and get into your readers' heads and parse your words for maximum clarity. That's an editing process, and I think it takes an entirely different chunk of your brain.
I'm really sad that the connotations of one word-placement choice have dwarfed for some people a whole lot of other things I said about being a fan of the pairing and wanting McShep shippers to be allies instead of enemies. But it did, and that's how things are. As you say, I didn't write it in a way that encouraged people to take the time to read it really carefully and think about my perspective. Rants are not conversion tools -- and in fairness, I didn't expect this to be, but it would be unfair of me now to be surprised that I haven't convinced some people.
I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 03:18 am (UTC)From: (Anonymous)Eurydice
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 03:49 am (UTC)From:If one is looking to affect the behavior of a specific person or persons, wouldn't it be more effective to discuss it with them directly?
Sure, because people react *so* well to strangers coming into their journals and telling them what they should or shouldn't say.
I mean, you could say this about pretty much every post that's *ever* posted to metafandom, couldn't you? "If you don't like XYZ, why bother making a post about it in general-- why not take it up with people specifically?" Because sometimes it's more useful to try to create more awareneness *in general*, by making a single post, than fighting a thousand tiny battles specifically.
In this specific case, I think there are two groups of people: the real assholes who actually would *love* it if all non-McShep fans just left the fandom forever, and the people who talk and act in ways that *give that impression*, however unintentionally. The first group wouldn't change their behavior even if you took it up with them specifically, and the second group might be more aware now of how certain things come across now to non-McShep fans. And if they're *not* really assholes, well, now that they're aware, maybe they'll think twice about acting like non-McShep fans are intruding on the party and ruining "everybody's" fun.
There are, I think, a certain amount of people who really don't care if non-McShep fans feel unwelcome, and who won't change their behavior
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 04:04 am (UTC)From:So I'm supposed to be encouraged by someone who calls people motherfuckers, rants about their virgin fucking eyeballs, and wants people to get off her fucking back to be a better, more tolerant fan? Holy backwards logic, Batman.
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 04:41 am (UTC)From:Did you even read the post? "But your VIRGIN FUCKING EYEBALLS aren't capable of doing what we plebes do every day of our lives and PAGING DOWN your flist, past the links to the stories you don't want to read?"
She's not ranting about HER virgin eyeballs. She's ranting about the fans who are coming out and *saying* that THEIR virgin eyeballs are too sensitive to even pass over *the title of a non-McShep story* on the sga_noticeboard community.
So I'm supposed to be encouraged by someone who calls people motherfuckers, rants about their virgin fucking eyeballs, and wants people to get off her fucking back to be a better, more tolerant fan? Holy backwards logic, Batman.
Well, if you're not *actively* trying to make non-McShep fans feel unwelcome, then she's not talking to you *at all*, so no, this post doesn't apply to you at all, and you shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged to be any different than you're being right now.
If you *are* the kind of asshole who is *actively trying to make non-McShep fans feel unwelcome*-- then I don't see anything wrong with saying "Don't be an asshole." Seriously. Someone says to you "The fact that you're even *posting* non-McShep stories offends me to the point where I don't even want to be in the same fandom with you," and you're supposed to react *politely* to that? Um, okay.
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 05:15 am (UTC)From:The problem wasn't in my reading of her post, but your reading of my comment. I'm well aware she was calling people motherfuckers, ranting about [people's] virgin eyeballs, and wanting people to get off her back.
Well, if you're not *actively* trying to make non-McShep fans feel unwelcome, then she's not talking to you *at all*, so no, this post doesn't apply to you at all, and you shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged to be any different than you're being right now.
That's not what you said earlier. You've created three groups of fans: asshole McSheppers (to whom the rant applies, as per the original post), people who may unintentionally acting like asshole McSheppers but are unaware of it (to whom the rant does apply as per your comment), and non-asshole McSheppers (to whom the rant doesn't apply as per your comments). Unfortunately, the second and the third groups are one and the same. You can't tell people the rant applies to them in one comment and that it doesn't apply to them at all in the next.
We're not going to get anywhere on the group issue; clearly you're determined to shift the groups and their definitions around as suits your needs, as noted by other commenters, and I'm not interested in a wank exchange.
What's most disappointing of all is that this post, whose topic could have served as a catalyst for a helpful discussion about point of view and impressions, fell victim to what appears to be one of the great rules of wank: the first rant is always wrong, but the second rant is always right. And there's nothing I can do to change that.
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 05:52 am (UTC)From:That's not what you said earlier. You've created three groups of fans:
asshole McSheppers (to whom the rant applies, as per the original post),
people who may unintentionally acting like asshole McSheppers but are
unaware of it (to whom the rant does apply as per your comment), and
non-asshole McSheppers (to whom the rant doesn't apply as per your
comments). Unfortunately, the second and the third groups are one and the
same. You can't tell people the rant applies to them in one comment and
that it doesn't apply to them at all in the next.
You're right. I was mixing around my definitions there.
I shouldn't have said "actively *trying to* make non-McShep fans feel unwelcome," as that *does* restrict what I said to only group #1. I didn't mean to put the emphasis on the "trying to," but on the "actively" part.
In other words, I should have said "unless you are actively DOING THINGS that make non-McShep fans feel unwelcome." Unless you are actively *doing things* that make non-McShep fans feel unwelcome, then this rant doesn't apply to you.
What's most disappointing of all is that this post, whose topic could have served as a catalyst for a helpful discussion about point of view and impressions, fell victim to what appears to be one of the great rules of wank: the first rant is always wrong, but the second rant is always right. And there's nothing I can do to change that.
Well-- just from my perspective, the position of the first rant seems to be "I can't even stand to look at the *title* of a story for a pairing I don't like, because when people dare to even *think* that canon supports a pairing I don't like, it's incredibly irritating." And the second rant seems to be "When you hear a lot of people in the most popular pairing in fandom saying things like that, over and over and over, it begins to give you the impression that they *actively want you to leave*, and that's incredibly irritating..."
So... yeah. I mean, just personally, it wouldn't matter to me which had been posted first. Both rants are about people doing something irritating and someone else wishing they would stop, because it's irritating; I just think one irritation is a little more understandable as far as turning it into a public rant where you actually *tell* people that they are being irritating.
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 08:17 am (UTC)From:Do I now think that people are going to go, "Hey, Hth is teaching me a valuable lesson here about how to treat my fellow fans?" Not really. I think the response is going to run the gamut from "That's so true! I feel exactly like that" to "holy shit, she's really flipped out; I had no idea people were taking stuff like this so much to heart" to "what a psycho bitch." Actually, I can read my eleventy thousand comments and see variation on all those things, so I don't even have to speculate.
And I don't think any of those responses are unjustified.
Whether I've improved fandom or squandered my credibility and lowered the tone of debate, I don't know. But I've alredy gone ahead and done it, and even if I did delete the thread, it's not like people didn't see me freak the fuck out; they already know I did. Also, I think there's a lot of interesting conversation in the comments that shouldn't be erased -- and *parts* of my original rant I still think are useful and fair. I've had some people say they got to those parts, even through the part where I indulged in my primal scream therapy, and I'm really glad of that.
In short: kids, don't be like me. I am not your role model for a better, more tolerant fan experience, and I know that perfectly well.
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 03:59 pm (UTC)From:But as you said, you can say whatever you'd like, as long as I can react however I'd like. I suppose that's as much common ground as I can find here.
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 04:32 am (UTC)From: (Anonymous)Eurydice
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 04:53 am (UTC)From:Eurydice, I don't know you, I don't know if you're *in* SGA fandom or what. From my perspective, Hth's rant was anything but nebulous. She gave specific examples of a very specific type of behavior performed by a specific type of fan.
"please at least refrain from acting as if you resent the pieces of the fandom we've carved out for ourselves, and most of all refrain from suggesting that public SGA fandom space isn't large enough for all of us at once. "
That seems pretty clear to me.
And as we've seen from the responses, those who seem concerned and well-meaning, who are perhaps most likely to look into their hearts and think twice, are being told that this post isn't about them.
Yeah.......... because it isn't about them.
If you are not perpetuating that specific type of behavior-- making public posts and comments about how much you resent and are irritated by the mere *existence* of fans who happen to be writing or talking about non-McShep pairings-- then the post is not about you.
I'm not sure how that's confusing, and I'm not sure why it makes you feel unwelcome. If you (speaking to fandom in general here)-- if you are not behaving like an asshole, then there is no reason to be insulted or offended by this post. If you think you *might* be behaving like an asshole, now you know exactly how you are making people feel when you behave like that: incredibly hurt and incredibly angry.
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 06:11 am (UTC)From: (Anonymous)As for whether I'm "in" SGA fandom, I'm in it and have been in it from the beginning and to the extent that I want - I've been much more heavily involved in other fandoms for more years than I want to think about. In SGA, I prefer gen, but I'll most anything else if it's well-written, and many times if it's not.
Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 08:31 am (UTC)From:I do think it's unfortunate that, up-thread, you mentioned how unwelcome you feel. I don't know you, and would have no reason in the world to want you gone from my lj, or from my fandom. I agree with you on some scores -- that my rant was not well-constructed to provide a learning experience, and that I probably did lose the sympathy of some people who might have been willing to engage with someone using a different tone -- and I disagree with you on other scores -- that I was being "nebulous" and not providing people enough information to figure out what *specific* behaviors offend me. But in very rare cases do I want people gone from conversations I (however ineptly) initiate, even if I disagree with them about *everything.*
Fandom is discourse for me. You are always welcome here, although I don't promise to come around to your way of thinking on everything.
But you *must* agree with me on *everything* :-)
Date: 2007-04-22 02:14 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)I've been a member of some fandom or other ever since dinosaurs roamed the earth - the real ones, not CGI. And one class of fans who've always seemed homeless to me are gen fans who kind of like all the characters. Nobody takes them seriously. Because they don't ship, they must have no soul or feelings or emotion or passion. Or they're really secret shippers who are too cowardly to come out. Because they're not advocates for any one particular character, they must lack discrimination - or they must be lying, because any moron can see how superior Character X is to Character Y.
A word in favor of X brings out the "AHA! I always knew you were an X-Whore!" A word for Y, brings a hail storm from the other side. And nobody wants a perceived peacemaker around when fandom's in the throes of invigorating outrage. Never mind that we're not all that peaceful. I guess everybody's got something, don't they? :-)
Eurydice
Ooops, I forgot to add
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-04-22 02:22 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: But you *must* agree with me on *everything* :-)
From:Re: I've stepped back and I'm still confused
Date: 2007-04-22 08:06 am (UTC)From:I actually have e-mailed the person in question to discuss it with her directly -- not because I necessarily think it's my role to win her over, but because it only seemed fair to address her as a real human being, after having treated her here as an Example Case.
Cheifly, though, I didn't write this in order to change people's behavior. Not that it's an unworthy goal at all to maybe get people to look at their actions and how they come across to others...but my rhetorical skillz are such that I know better than to lead with the caps lock of crazy profanity if what I'm writing is a persuasive piece.
This was about my anger and frustration and hurt feelings. That's exactly why I warned up front that I wasn't going to be fair or rational, and that's why it would be kinda hypocritical now to act like I was trying to do fandom some favor by pointing out the error of their ways. I was hurt, and I hit back. It's not my finest hour, but it is bleeding open some things that have been festering for a while.
Hopefully I can revisit the topic again at some point, and hopefully I'll still have some credibility as something other than an apparent crazy person. If not...well, I guess fandom will go on doing what it does, and I'll learn the value of not posting at 4 a.m. in a blind rage.
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 04:42 am (UTC)From:I'm... so not buying that argument. Sorry, but I don't.
There's a blanket implication being made here about McShep fans. You can't say "OMG ALL THE PEOPLE IN A GROUP ASSOCIATED WITH X ARE MOTHERFUCKING EVIL ASSHOLES!" and then, when people in that general group start reacting badly, just handwave their objections away by going "Oh, but I didn't mean *you* in particular, cause clearly *you* are not like the rest of them - the people that I hate so much - and since that's clear why are you reacting badly that's not fair how dare you try to silence me!"
It just doesn't fly.
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 05:02 am (UTC)From:You can't say "OMG ALL THE PEOPLE IN A GROUP ASSOCIATED WITH X ARE MOTHERFUCKING EVIL ASSHOLES!"
But..... she didn't.
If she HAD said "all McShep fans" and then backtracked to say "ok, not you guys, just the jerky ones" then I'd agree with you. But she didn't. She is talking about *a specific group* of McShep fans, right from the start. That seemed pretty clear to me (and to most of the original commenters who came here from their flists or from metafandom.)
-- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom.
Key phrase: "wing of McShep fandom." Not "I continue to be appalled by ALL McShep fans," but "By a certain group WITHIN McShep fandom."
-- What leaves me shocked and hurt and angry isn't that there's a large segment of the fandom that doesn't care for/about what I do. It's that I genuinely feel like they want us gone
Again, she's *not talking* about the large segment of McShep fans who just don't care for other pairings, but the segment that is *actively being jerks* who wish that non-McShep fans would leave.
If you're not part of that group, if you're not doing the things *she's specifically talking about*, then this rant isn't aimed at you.
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-23 02:56 pm (UTC)From:"wing of McShep fandom" - what is that supposed to mean? How many people is that? If someone started talking in a highly derogatory manner about a "wing of SGA fandom" that was doing something the author found offensive, would you seriously just ignore that and assume it couldn't possibly have anything to do with you? Would you sit calmly and let it pass as harmless because the bad behavior being discussed may or may not have anything to do with you? Or would your hackles go up because you are part of SGA fandom and who the hell knows what "wing" this person is talking about and how many people that includes?
Again, she's *not talking* about the large segment of McShep fans who just don't care for other pairings, but the segment that is *actively being jerks* who wish that non-McShep fans would leave.
Nooo, she's talking about "a large segment of the fandom" that (she believes) "genuinely" wants everyone else gone.
I'm sorry, hon, but there's no way to whitewash that or make it sound logical. This is a broad attack on a large group of people, as well as an even larger group guilty by association. You can try to parse "behaviors" all you want, but the whole "well if you're not doing this you don't have anything to be offended by" defense doesn't work. I am not a John/Rodney fan and I haven't been since fall of 2004, and I was offended by this post for the implications being made about a "large segment of the fandom" and ascribing motives to those people that are highly unflattering.
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-22 07:56 am (UTC)From:yeah. I think I'd have known from the first (had I bothered to think about it) that would be the most controversial thing I said. And I can see how it creates confusion for some people about whom, exactly, I was trying to poke. I'm highly relieved that a lot of my positive comments have been from self-described McShep fans who did get the distinction, but I'm not surprised that there were also people who were left really puzzled and frustrated.
I'm certainly not going to stop liking the pairing
I want you to know -- and I tried to say this within the post itself, but I think it got lost in the sound & fury -- that I would have no desire for you to do that. As I tried to say, even *I* like the pairing. It's not my favorite, but it's on the list of pairings I read, *and write.* What on earth would I gain by making people stop liking it? If I were the Queen of Fandom, I would be *adding to* the list of things people like and appreciate, not in any way subtracting from it. Never, at all.
The sense I have that McShep "owns everything" in the fandom doesn't translate into wanting to defeat it in some way. It's a little like -- well, like heterosexuality. Every queer person I've ever known has those times when they feel like the het is *everywhere,* on tv, on the radio, in books, in their friends' lives, it's embedded into the public discourse. And every queer person I've ever known has at one point or another said something like, "If I have to see one more fucking movie about straight people, I swear to god...." There's a very deep and very real frustration associated with feeling like you are invisible and this thing that doesn't accurately represent you is inescapable, and that people largely accept that as the normal state of affairs.
Does this mean I actually frown on straight people making movies about straight people? God, no. Most of my favorite movies feature straight people! And more than that, it absolutely doesn't mean that I don't love my straight friends, and support them and wish them love and happiness. My frustration is real, but it's about wanting to see *more,* wanting the world to open up and see a lot of different things as worthy and human and delicious, even if they are strange or uncommon. It's not about wanting to take things away from other people, at all.
And I can see that for people who don't know me, who are surfing in and catching only this piece of me, this deep frustration with a situation where I feel invisible and absent and too many people seem to accept that as the norm -- I can see how it comes across as awful and hateful and stomping all over the McShep. That's going to be the natural consequence of not writing this up as a careful, well-edited opinion piece -- of doing it instead while leading with my Angry Baton of Angriness. This is why people don't usually recommend doing that. *g*
I admire anyone who comes into a thread like this, where so many people are venting and purging, and says something as honest as what you're saying: that you want to listen, but you're defensive and hurt at the same time. I can see why the latter is true; you're a brave soul to maintain the first simultaneously. I can't even express to you how much I appreciate your participation here, and I hope something I've rambled on about here will help clarify what's happening with me right now and why.
I said at the end of the original post, and I really meant it very sincerely, that what I want is allies, what I want is friends. Not converts, not people who've come to Jesus and renounced their own fannish loyalties in favor of mine. I want people who root for me to get what I want, even as they get what they want, people who think that fandom should be a win-win proposition. I have those people; I wish I had more of them.
Re: You have every right to vent.
Date: 2007-04-23 01:33 am (UTC)From:That's the most vehement part which does, naturally, draw a lot of attention but the whole of the post just...It's been a while since a post in fandom's been able to make me sit back and blink. That's the best example of what bothered me about it, but the whole post collectively hit a nerve in me that, I have to say, I'd've probably felt whether or not I had any John/Rodney inclinations at all.
have no desire for you to do that.
Pshaw, don't worry about that one. *G* It would take a *LOT* for me to even consider feeling guilty about a pairing. I cheerfully equate a lot of my fannish experience to my time in Season 8 X-Files. I was a self-admitted Doggett/Scully 'shipper and writer of said pairing in a fandom where being a DSR fan meant it was open season on your ass. I don't think there was ever a story I posted of that pairing that I wasn't actively flamed over by Mulder/Scully fans, called a fickle fan, a traitor, a thousand other names (among which motherfucker would've actually been tame). MSR fans running 'fandom-wide lists' banned any mention of Doggett much less Doggett/Scully, some wrote stories that were meant to appear to be Doggett and DSR friendly only to have him rape her or kill her or turn into some sort of crazy ass monster by the end of it and then said fans would laugh and mock anybody who complained on open newsgroups and mailing lists.
After that? it takes a heckuva lot to make me reconsider any of my pairings. Which is probably why I have such a long list of them *G*
can see how it comes across as awful and hateful and stomping all over the McShep.
*nods* so very true. It really does look that way and without knowing any fannish history or personality, it looks like it's just the latest in a very long line (seriously, alas, I see more anti-McShep behavior in fandom than I do the other way around) of posts taking a strip of McShep fans for existing.
And seriously, I really do get the frustration. In addition to multishipping, I'm multifannish and hang out in Supernatural where I am not a Wincest fan. I spend like half my time explaining to Wincest fans I'm not out to have 'em tarred and feathered, the other half cultivating my own wee little fandom. There are days, if I let loose, I wouldn't stop ranting until doomsday *G*
usually recommend doing that. *g*
This is why I have a snark/bitch filter actually *G* I have a small group of people on it that I know will GET when I am irrationally pissed (not that it stops them from telling me to shaddup *G* bless 'em) and thus, I get to look like the generally happy, sweet as honey, stereotypically polite Canadian the world expects me to be *G*
I can't even express to you how much I appreciate your.
Oh no problem. Seriously, this? The first time I've ever tried to say something like this and gotten thanked for it *G* That's...that's definitely a first. And like I said, believe me, I get the frustration.
And this one occured to me today as it's the last week of the month (OMG) I handle the volunteer assignments over at
There are 1050 fans watching the community so the only thing holding back the representation of non-McShep pairings on that comm are the fans themselves.
people who think that fandom should be a win-win proposition. I
Oh god, don't we all. I joked last night to a friend, after reading some of the comments here (not made by you) that between writing fic that's non-McShep, running challenges and bending over backwards to make sure there's enough prompts and such in the SGA section that aren't McShep about the only thing left I can do is sign over my first born. Course, I have to *HAVE* it first, but hey! I can always promise! *G* But yes, there needs to be a lot more of fans having the awareness of other fans and the 'ship and let 'ship.