hth: (bitch please)
I think I'll quote somebody out of context, because that's always worked really well for me in the past.

Saying "black characters are written too broadly in New Who, making them resemble stereotypes" rather ignores the fact that white characters are treated the same way.

Look. This is the problem with trying to raise white people on Sesame Street in order to cure racism: you get a generation of white people who think it's to their credit that they hold everyone to the same standard, and run around operating like the world is one big, happy block party -- people who think they're complementing themselves when they say they're "colorblind."

BLIND is not a moral positive. BLIND is an inability to perceive what the non-blind people around you can clearly fucking see. My grandfather was red/green colorblind. His family also had a strawberry farm. His father used to beat him for not obeying instructions to pick only the RED strawberries and leave the GREEN ones on the bush.

Now, I'm not recommending regular beatings for the colorblind. That wasn't a nice thing to do (my great-grandfather was not a nice person in general, for oh so many reasons). But the thing is, my grandfather's colorblindness? Was a problem, because there is actually such a thing as color when it comes to strawberries, and it's easier to work on a strawberry farm when you can see it.

And there is actually such a thing as race. If you can't see it, you're not doing yourself or anyone else any favors. There are cases where you can give the EXACT SAME script/character arc/iconography/etc. to a white performer and to a performer of color, and the overall effect WILL BE DIFFERENT. Race is real. People respond to it, often on levels they aren't entirely aware of. So it actually misses the whole entire point of discussing race and racism if your sole defense is "but we're just treating them the exact same way we treat white characters!" It may be true, or it may not be true, but either way it's singularly useless.

Some fans seem to find gender easier to understand than race, so think of it this way: if there's a character that isn't very bright but always uses sexuality to manipulate other people, does it make a difference if that character is a man or a woman? Isn't it more of a stereotype in one case than in the other? And if some writer or producer said, "Oh, it's not sexist -- this is just what we were going to do, and we thought we might hire a male actor, but we went with a woman instead, so we kept the same stuff!" that doesn't magically make her not a sexist cliche, does it? If they'd cast a man, the character would read one way; when they do cast a woman, it reads differently. Same character. Different, because of the baggage we bring surrounding gender. If you were somehow magically oblivious to any and all gender issues, you might not notice that. But you wouldn't thereby be a better person than the rest of us. You'd just be oblivious.

Unfortunately, in our culture, we are conditioned to see white people as Real People, and black people as sort of thin slices of people, operating in one of a very few available modes and with only a very few emotions and interests. Therefore it's just different to write a white character "broadly" versus a black character. It's not enough to write the black character "just like" all your white characters, because race is not invisible to most of us and it doesn't have no consequences. In order to challenge people's already racist assumptions about black characters, writers have to work that much harder, and they have to work not blind. They have to work with their eyes open and their brains engaged and with the awareness of subtle signals and context and connotation that anyone who writes for a living should damn well be conversant with. To do less than that is to write lazily, to write foolishly, to write contemptuously of one's characters and one's craft, and to do all that because you can't or won't go the extra mile to bring race into the universe of stuff that factors into your writing does, in fact, have racist implications.

"Colorblindness" may be one's reason for making all of those mistakes, but it isn't an excuse, and it doesn't magically make the product impervious from criticism. Be less blind.
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Date: 2007-07-13 05:29 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] liviapenn.livejournal.com
ext_108: Jules from Psych saying "You guys are thinking about cupcakes, aren't you?" (Default)

Oh god, SO MUCH agreed.

The trouble with "colorblind casting" (or genderblind, for that matter) is that it doesn't apply to the leads. It just doesn't. How delusional do you have to be to think that there was *ever* a chance that they would have cast an Asian or Hispanic guy as John Sheppard, or Doctor Who, or Dean Winchester? Most shows *automatically* cast white male leads, which-- shock, surprise-- leaves women and minorities to play expendable one-shot victims, monsters or funny sidekicks.

And, interestingly, you don't see this emphasis on "we must be colorblind! be more colorblind!" when discussing *leads*. I don't see these same people insisting that we *must* cast the best actor for the part when that means less Cute White Guys.

No, it's only when you point out that the minor characters, babes of the week or extras fall into an unfortunate pattern-- that's when you get told to hush up, because considering someone's race is racist, or considering someone's gender is sexist, and so on and so forth.

But like you said: if you don't want to perpetuate stupid, offensive patterns you *have to* think about this stuff. You can't just say "well, it's totally a coincidence that we repeatedly cast black men as thuggish rapists." You know, it may in fact be a total coincidence! But being colorblind when it comes to specific instances-- if you do it enough, it means you're blind to the *pattern* that your individual instances are creating-- blind to the fact that your choices exist in a *context*-- a historical context, a social context-- that there are stereotypes that *already exist* in the world. And you can choose to either reinforce or reject them.

It's like, ok, suppose you have a 22-episode season and just *coincidentally*, whenever there's a need for an admirable, kickass, brave, self-sacrificing, heroic character, the best actor for the part is a blue-eyed blond, and also completely randomly, there are three or four parts for "thuggish animalistic rapist" and the best actor for the part in each case is black.

I was arguing with a guy recently who was basically saying "well, if you take the context into account, then you're letting race influence your thinking, which is racist!!!omg, and besides, it would Hurt the Show if we didn't cast the best actor for the part."

And I'm thinking-- but it doesn't hurt the show to perpetuate racist stereotypes? You *have to think* about this stuff. You can't just focus on the details and ignore the bigger picture that *you are creating with your choices*.

Date: 2007-07-13 06:15 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com
The trouble with "colorblind casting" (or genderblind, for that matter) is that it doesn't apply to the leads. It just doesn't.

I've heard it said that before they decided to import the McKay character from SG1, the chief scientist on SGA was written as a Dr. Ingram, and the intent was to cast an African-American actor. I really, really wonder what the fandom would look like if that had actually happened. I want to travel to the alternate universe where it did, just to see!

It's like, ok, suppose you have a 22-episode season and just *coincidentally*, whenever there's a need for an admirable, kickass, brave, self-sacrificing, heroic character, the best actor for the part is a blue-eyed blond, and also completely randomly, there are three or four parts for "thuggish animalistic rapist" and the best actor for the part in each case is black.

Right, but I'm thinking more of -- I guess a more genuine kind of lazy foolishness, which is what I see in a lot of the Dr. Who debates. It seems like a lot of the defense that's been going regarding Martha's servant-role and the treatment of her as vastly inferior to Rose revolves around this idea that, well, what if the actress just didn't happen to be black? And it's not even a matter of pattern to me -- even if you had a 100% unblemished record of joy and puppies when it came to racial matters, there's something deeply loaded about taking a black female character of considerable achievement and education and running a whole season of her unrequited love for a man who never thinks she's as worthy in any way as the blue-eyed blonde. That isn't covered by "well, he would have felt that way about anyone after Rose, regardless of race!" or "Rose had to dress like a maid, too!"

It's not like I really think they went, "We need someone to be a companion, but we want to make sure she's just that much less appealing and desirable than Rose -- let's get a black girl, that should do it!" I think they probably really did develop the arc, and then cast a black actress -- I just think they *shouldn't have* cast a black actress for that particular arc, because it *changed* the story in ways that made it racist and weird instead of merely a personal drama about Ten's increasingly warped inability to deal with people.

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Date: 2007-07-13 06:13 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] poisontaster
poisontaster: character Wen Qing from The Untamed (Default)
Some time ago, I lost a friend over a discussion on racism. Your post here pinged with me so strongly that I seriously considered emailing her the link, even though I've had nothing to do with her in over a year and don't particularly ever want to speak to her again.

Race is real. People respond to it, often on levels they aren't entirely aware of. So it actually misses the whole entire point of discussing race and racism if your sole defense is "but we're just treating them the exact same way we treat white characters!" It may be true, or it may not be true, but either way it's singularly useless.
Just...yes. Exactly.

Date: 2007-07-13 07:20 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com
It's sad that we're really at that point, still, where even people who are actual friends can't honestly hear each other and take these concerns seriously. I mean, if one of my friends said to me about ANYTHING, "You know, this makes me feel really uncomfortable and angry and bad about how the world is," then I'd try to understand why. And even if I never saw it the same way, I think I'd be able to say that, you know, it was a real and legitimate concern that real and legitimate people did have, and therefore it was worth thinking about.

The way in which people shut down even on folks they would otherwise trust and listen to once the topic becomes race is really a tragedy.

Date: 2007-07-13 06:24 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] sixersfan.livejournal.com
You are absolutely correct. I often tell people I get offended when they say they are colorblind or that they don't see me as Black. I am Black. It is a very important part of who I am. Not seeing that is not seeing me.

This extends far beyond writing and into the realm of basic human interaction and human understanding. Your words here are appreciated. I hope you don't mind if I link to this post in my own journal.

Date: 2007-07-13 07:26 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com
Not at all! I'm glad it resonated with you. It took me some time to stop being very uncomfortable with the fact that I *do* notice and react to race, because I was so used to hearing that rhetoric, that either, "if you're really evolved and liberal, everyone will become Just a Person to you, and you won't see their race!" or else "everybody knows that white people have white privilege and therefore can't see racism and don't believe it's really there." Which, like -- of course I can and do, because of my eyes? And I wasn't sure if that made me really weird and secretly a terrible racist, or what. Now I'm finally to the point where I don't aspire to be blind anymore, and it's quite a lot easier for me to work on the great strawberry farm of life. *g*

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Date: 2007-07-13 07:07 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] linabean.livejournal.com
Oh, this is good to read--back when some fans were asserting that some portrayals of people of color in SGA fanfic couldn't possibly be problematic, I wanted to post something along these lines, but I couldn't have made it this clear or succinct (I have to say, there were a whole mess of things I wanted to post then).

And it's so creepy when it comes to fanfic, because if authors were just willing to do the critical thinking about individual characters that's necessary to write convincingly about background, motivations, interrelationships, etc., then just about all the unintentionally racially-charged portrayls wouldn't crop up. I mean, I've seen people argue along the lines that, hey, in an AU where, say, Atlantis is a major metropolitan newspaper, of course it'd make sense that Ronon was some guy in a street gang while everyone else was a reporter--Ronon keeps *knives in his hair*. How could someone like that to work in a professional setting? And I just think, What the hell, man? Stopping to examine that kneejerk assessment of Ronon's character would remind us that, on SGA, a large proportion of the characters go around with guns strapped to their legs. The fact that Ronon has knives in addition to a gun just means he's better-prepared than his colleagues. Thus, in an AU where everyone works in a newsroom, it'd make a lot more sense for him to be the reporter with pencils and tiny recording devices and cameras in his hair.

Now, I get that not everyone wants to think critically when it comes to writing fanfic. Hey, that's fair enough; when it comes to my hobbies and leisure time, I don't like to practice mathematical reasoning. But if fanfic authors just want to pour out their ids unfiltered and reproduce tropes uncritically, then I really wish they'd go on leaving out characters of color and women from their stories. Because the anti-color, anti-women stuff is so pervasive in the culture that shapes our ids and tropes, writing about characters of color and women without engaging critically will just lead to repeating the racist, misogynistic crap, and I just don't want to see that in fandom. A pile-up of shallow whitebread stories can get boring, but at least it's not *actively* offensive to me.

Date: 2007-07-13 04:33 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] wendynever.livejournal.com
ext_6958: (Default)
The fact that Ronon has knives in addition to a gun just means he's better-prepared than his colleagues. Thus, in an AU where everyone works in a newsroom, it'd make a lot more sense for him to be the reporter with pencils and tiny recording devices and cameras in his hair.

Exactly right. Also- ha ha- I love that image.

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Date: 2007-07-13 04:21 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] thete1.livejournal.com
Oh, this is *excellent*. Thank you!

Date: 2007-07-13 04:30 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] musesfool.livejournal.com
ext_1310: (Default)
This is possibly the best post I've seen on the subject. Thank you.
There is restlessness in the Supernatural fandom because some are worried "too many" of the Bad Guys are black, perpetuating racist stereotypes. To sum up this concern: why are black men out to get Sam and Dean oh noes!?

In season two, we were introduced to hunter Gordon Walker, FBI Agent Henricksen, and the young soldier Jake, all played by black actors.

Was the casting insensitive? Racist? I don't think so, because the characters aren't simplistic; they are not "bad guys."

We cannot judge Gordon yet. Gordon could be right about Sam. Yeah, Gordon might be a little too fond of his work, but so is Dean (and probably the hunter majority).

Henricksen being black is a stroke of casting genius. When we learn he believes the Winchesters are backwoods survivalist types, possibly white supremacists, his pursuit of them takes on an extra dimension. His zeal makes total sense. His expression and voice when he finds a young black man he believes Sam and Dean killed says it all.

When Jake is threatened with a bleak economic future, it's far more of a threat because he's black. What chance does a young black man with a dishonorable discharge have of making a living? His choice to protect his family makes sense for his character; it's not "evil."

There is nothing innately villainous about any of the three characters. Their conflict with the Winchesters is brought about by circumstances, not evil intentions. They have depth because they have valid reasons, completely independent of the Winchesters, for what they do. So I think the casting decisions were good ones.

Also: I heartily hope Gordon Walker escapes from prison soon. :D


ext_108: Jules from Psych saying "You guys are thinking about cupcakes, aren't you?" (Default)

Maybe I'm missing the part where this has much of anything to do with what Hth said, but...

I think it makes more sense to think of characters less in terms of good or evil, and more in terms of whether they're admirable or not admirable. Henricksen is an admirable character (apart from some slight bullying of the lawyer in "Folsom Prison Blues.") I'd love to see him go through a Jean Valjean sort of arc with the Winchesters.

Jake and Gordon, on the other hand, are non-admirable characters; vengeful, cowardly, vicious. I can't imagine a plot where Gordon comes back where he doesn't end up dying at the end. Gordon is clearly psychotic; he kills his own sister, which within the family-centric narrative of SPN clearly marks him as a bad guy. And Jake literally stabs Sam in the back and runs away in the *first* half of the two-part finale-- *before* the demon threatens his family in the second half.

Like I started to say in my first comment to hth's post, this is just the unfortunate side effect of a show where the leads are heterosexual white males; either there's no diversity in the show at all, or else the non-straight, non-white, non-male characters get to play the evil, dead or plot-device characters. And there would be absolutely nothing wrong with that, *if*-- well, put it this way. Of course there's nothing *inherently* wrong with having heterosexual white males as leads of one particular show... as long as heterosexual white males aren't the leads on *every* show.

Unfortunately in terms of sci-fi and fantasy, we have only taken a few teeny, tiny steps away from that place, meaning that more often than not, non-straight-white-male characters are all too often relegated to these stereotyped roles.

continued

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Date: 2007-07-13 10:26 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] cofax7
cofax7: climbing on an abbey wall  (Default)
From your lips to Anthony Kennedy's ears.

....::sigh::

Date: 2007-07-14 02:12 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com
ext_6167: (Default)
very good.

Date: 2007-07-14 02:22 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] natlyn.livejournal.com
::stands and cheers::

Date: 2007-07-14 05:52 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] gloss
gloss: woman in front of birch tree looking to the right (Default)
I realized that I've linked people to this post, bookmarked it, and read it several times, but neglected to thank you.

Thank you. This is a fantastic exposition of many of the issues involved.

Date: 2007-07-14 09:16 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] tacky-tramp.livejournal.com
And there is actually such a thing as race.

Judging from my many conversations with Clueless White People (and my past as a CWP), this is the sticking point for lots of folks. A great number of us grew up believing that dividing people up based on color is badwrongevil, and saw lots and lots of very persuasive evidence that biological race is mostly or totally fictional. We were taught that a person is not stupider or smarter or more or less valuable based on skin color and heritage. And somewhere along the line, we started understanding that to mean, "Only bad, stupid people believe that race means anything." And, "Good, smart people view everyone exactly the same regardless of their supposed race."

I optimistically believe, then, that a lot of Clueless Colorblindism is rooted in a misunderstanding about what we mean when we say that race exists and affects people's lives. This post does a great job of chipping away at that misunderstanding. Thanks!

yeah

Date: 2007-07-15 04:14 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_swallow/
Someone I know quoted MLK's "they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character" speech as support for the notion that HAVING A BLACK STUDENT UNION AT OUR COLLEGE was racist and pro-segregation.

Date: 2007-07-14 09:45 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
Interesting points you're raising. I remember once a criticism of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series in which the critic pointed out that some of the character were described as black, but beyond they're physical description of them nothing about them acknowledging their non-European roots. They were black, so that the HP-verse could appear racially diverse without actually being culturally diverse. The criticism was fairly muddled, mind you, because it begged the question if Rowling had tried to make the black characters act "black" as the critic demanded, the likelihood of overdoing it and engaging in a racist cliche - not out of malice, but out of white, middle-class inexperience - would have been infinitely high.

Is a black token that acts white better than a racist cliche? Of course. The real question is if a black token is better than no racial diversity at all?

Ultimately it comes down to the same old conflict of individuality versus equality. The communists always hated the idea that people are born with talents. For them it was always nurture over nature. Meanwhile every sci-fi story written in the West is about the freedom of individual choices. The heroes of sci-fi are always claiming the right to be unhappy, to "grow old and ugly and impotent; the right to have syphilis and cancer; the right to have too little to eat; the right to be lousy; the right to live in constant apprehension of what may happen tomorrow; the right to catch typhoid; the right to be tortured by unspeakable pains of every kind" the right to be an individual.

Because the more you distance yourself,from the societal average, the more of an individual you are, the more likely you're are to be poor, helpless and miserable. An individual is, in the end, a minority of one.

Race is still a factor to define an individual as aberrant of the societal norm (the non-vacuum you're talking about), so the problem here is one that I consider unsolveable. It's easier to eliminate race as a defining factor of societal norms than to solve the problem here.

If a black actor should be given special consideration during the casting process, aren't we denying him the equality he deserves? And if we treat him colorblind, casting him as servant, minion, evildoer, villain, just we would cast a white actor aren't we ignorant, if not hurtful, of his special, individual circumstances?

And are we taking into account that Doctor Who (which I guess inspired this post) is British and has a less pronounced history with colored people in subservient roles? Has an entire non-American history where slavery was something that Britain profitted from but that never seemed to have happened on their own soil? Segragation never happened. No one ever sat on any backseats in any buses in Britain.

So is it possible that your sensibilities and Russell Whatshisface's are just continentally divided. So perhaps, the problem is that Russell can afford to be colorblind, because his country never needed to have thousands of black people marching for their capital to claim their equal rights.

Who is ultimately an underserving topic because you're splitting hairs from an American and very subjective perspective. If you want to find some real racism you should pick on American shows and their unfortunate tendency to cast Latinos as servants. When even a million dollar Latina like La Lopez at the height of her fame had to play the eponymous Maid in Manhattan you know you're looking at racism at its finest.

Date: 2007-07-14 10:34 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] rydra_wong
rydra_wong: Lee Miller photo showing two women wearing metal fire masks in England during WWII. (Default)
So is it possible that your sensibilities and Russell Whatshisface's are just continentally divided. So perhaps, the problem is that Russell can afford to be colorblind, because his country never needed to have thousands of black people marching for their capital to claim their equal rights.

As someone British, I can categorically state that Britain has had, and continues to have, major issues with racism. And we have a long tradition of activism being needed to claim equal rights here too.

No, racism here hasn't always manifested in exactly the same ways as in the US, and the history and context isn't identical.

But frankly - from my perspective, it's astonishingly naive to imagine that RTD (or anyone else) can "afford to be colourblind" because Britain is some magical racism-free paradise in which women of colour have never been oppressed or forced into subservient roles.

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Amen for ammendations

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am i going to have to...

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Re: Amen for ammendations

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Date: 2007-07-14 09:54 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] minim_calibre
minim_calibre: (Default)
Oh, man. I nodded my head off to all of this. I have a half-baked post in my head on how colorblind casting and wind up sending the opposite message that the producers are going for, specific to SPN. (The character of Jake mentioned upthread was conceptualized as a "Matt Damon all-American" type, per interviews with the writer.)

I know they mean well, BUT. I'm fairly certain what they were going for was Diversity, YAY! Not, "Oh, Christ on a CRUTCH, you did NOT just do that!" which was my reaction.

There are cases where you can give the EXACT SAME script/character arc/iconography/etc. to a white performer and to a performer of color, and the overall effect WILL BE DIFFERENT. Race is real. People respond to it, often on levels they aren't entirely aware of. So it actually misses the whole entire point of discussing race and racism if your sole defense is "but we're just treating them the exact same way we treat white characters!" It may be true, or it may not be true, but either way it's singularly useless.

Because, yes. This.

Date: 2007-07-15 02:26 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] scrollgirl.livejournal.com
ext_2353: amanda tapping, chris judge, end of an era (Default)
I know they mean well, BUT. I'm fairly certain what they were going for was Diversity, YAY! Not, "Oh, Christ on a CRUTCH, you did NOT just do that!" which was my reaction.

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction too. I dearly hoped Jake would redeem himself in Part 2, because I'd really liked him in Part 1, but alas. It was not meant to be.

Of course let's not forget the dead lesbians. *facepalm* Try HARDER, Kripke. I know you can do it!

Date: 2007-07-14 10:22 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] coffeeandink.livejournal.com
ext_6428: (Default)
Oh my god thank you.

Date: 2007-07-14 10:28 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] puritybrown.livejournal.com
I think maybe what people get hung up on is that race is a social category, not a natural category (in that the places where humans deviate from each other genetically don't coincide with the places where we draw the lines of race*), and people assume that "this behaviour is based on socially constructed roles" means "we can stop any time we want", which makes them think "well, obviously we don't want to be racist, so we must not be racist, because if we were we could stop any time we wanted to, and we do want to." Except it's not that simple, because privilege is addictive, and you really can't just stop without giving careful thought to the matter and trying really hard, and even then there's no guarantee that you won't relapse into old patterns.

I... honestly, I think laziness is responsible for at least 60% of it. Examining your own privileges and prejudices is hard work.

I just think of all the missing Chinese people in Firefly. Everyone speaks Chinese and eats Chinese food and writes in Chinese, but where are the Chinese people? Whedon defended this with the old "we cast the best actors" line, which just isn't good enough. I mean, even if you let the politics alone (which, heh, I was raised by a lecturer in development studies, so that's not going to happen): on the level of simple logic, it makes no sense. But, well, prejudice defeats logic like rock defeats scissors. *sigh*

*Which results in different cultures drawing the lines in different places. American racial politics confuse me. But then, in Ireland we have the Travellers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller)... to an American, a Traveller would most likely just register as "white", but they have none of the privileges attached to that category.

Date: 2007-07-15 12:58 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] danamaree.livejournal.com
ext_2138: (Default)
American racial politics confuse me.

It confuses me as well, and I wish I could articulate why, because as it stands I just sound stupid when I say that. Some people believe that when I say 'it confuses me' that I'm making out that my country is all 'happy, happpy' and that there is no racism, which is so not true.

It just, it's different. And race politics in the US is a bit of a minefield for me, because I'm not sure what is the correct thing to say, or the incorrect thing to say. And heh, I've spent years watching American television, but that hasn't given me a clue (I suspect the Americans are pretty schizo on the issue as well).

What I want to see more of in fandom, is more discussion about the cultural differences. Everyone talks about race, and gender, but nobody talks about the problematic, and mostly sub consious imposition of values on characters and countries which aren't American. But I'm afraid this won't happen, partly because Americans and others will be afraid it will go down to another round of 'american bashing' which it could, like every other contentious issue, and partly because the fandom is dominated by American fans, who don't see an issue with it, because their entire world is American.

Some nice, civil conversation would be fantastic.

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continued...

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Date: 2007-07-14 11:50 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] jaceyangel.livejournal.com
Sweetheart, don't get your knickers ina twist, and send me a link to a post that doesn't apply to me.
I'm nto blind to racism. I'm fully aware of it. But I'm also fully aware that I think people who are racist are stupid. I think they're ignorant idiots. SO, if I think that colour makes no difference in love, then I am free to hold that opinion. It makes no difference to me. Love is love.
Yes, I see the colour of a person's skin. I see the history that comes before that. But I don't see the difference in one persons skin colour, to my own. Because I'm not racist.

Oh and we're conditioned to see that white people are the real people? What culture do you live in, and remind me never to go to that country.

Date: 2007-07-14 11:58 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] jaceyangel.livejournal.com
I apologise, that comment was directed at the person who sent me here, who it turns out, didn't write this post.

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Native Title

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Date: 2007-07-15 03:13 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] jaceyangel.livejournal.com
oh! thought! (not arguing, just a thought! :D)
What about the way that they portrayed Rose as a chav? Technically, that would be considered racist, could it not?

Date: 2007-07-15 05:47 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com
Technically, I think one would consider that an issue of class, not race -- it only becomes racial per se if there's a widespread cultural assumption that "white" is interchangeable with "chav," and therefore any white character you see on British television is going to be just another chav. Which doesn't happen to be the case -- white people appear on television in the West in a wide variety of contexts and with a great many different class, cultural, and stylistic allegiances.

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Here via metafandom

Date: 2007-07-15 05:52 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/solo____/
ext_167: (Default)
I really like the way you are putting this because it makes sense, to me, of an attitude I hadn't really previously understood. I'm one of the crowd who would normally say that treating a character of colour the same way as a white character, or a female character the same way as a male character, is a good thing to do. It's good to hear where the opposite position is coming from.

I still don't agree with it. Because what you seem to be advocating in its stead is... well, is a form of discrimination. And yes, I do know of this concept called positive discrimination, but I have always found that problematic as well. It remains discrimination. It makes me deeply uneasy that I should be expected to treat anybody *differently* because of their race or gender, or that I might be treated differently because of my race or gender. To my mind, that's not really what equality is about.

Not that I have a clever solution.

I'd like to know which culture you mean in which "we are conditioned to see white people as Real People and black people as sort of thin slices of people, operating in one of a very few available modes and with only a very few emotions and interests." I don't recognize this culture you describe, but then, I don't live in the US - are you being US specific? I wonder if this issue might also apply to the question of 'the baggage we bring surrounding gender [and race]'. Not everybody's baggage is the same.

Re: Here via metafandom

Date: 2007-07-15 12:05 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] spiralsheep.livejournal.com
ext_939: Sheep wearing an eyepatch (Default)
I'd like to know which culture you mean in which "we are conditioned to see white people as Real People and black people as sort of thin slices of people, operating in one of a very few available modes and with only a very few emotions and interests." I don't recognize this culture you describe, but then, I don't live in the US

Your profile says you live in Scotland.

2002: "a study suggested that one in four Scots admit to being racist" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2277356.stm)

2006: "Racially motivated crime is still rising across Scotland, according to figures for 2006." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6212021.stm)

I put it to you that racism and racist stereotyping happen in Scotland too according to the Scottish people, Scottish government, and the Scottish media.

Re: Here via metafandom

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Date: 2007-07-15 07:10 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] oyceter
oyceter: teruterubouzu default icon (Default)
YES. And thank you, thank you, thank you.

Date: 2007-07-15 12:25 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] lizw.livejournal.com
This is excellent. Thank you.

Date: 2007-07-15 02:58 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] vass
vass: Small turtle with green leaf in its mouth (Default)
*applauds*

Date: 2007-07-15 03:10 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] nell65.livejournal.com
Just chiming in with another 'good post!' Thanks for sharing it.

Date: 2007-07-15 03:27 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] aycheb.livejournal.com
Here via [livejournal.com profile] metafandom

Thank you for this and particularly for outlining the ‘mammy’ stereotype issues with Martha’s charcterisation in one of the comments. I had had trouble with the S3 arc and her part in the finale but had thought it more a problem with incoherent writing rather than stereotyping, it was unclear to me whether her Doctor love was romantic or quasi-religious adoration (which I did think would have been a racist stereotype had it been more prominent). I didn’t catch onto the devoted servant aspect of it at all but in retrospect it’s blindingly obvious. I think it’s something that may be more apparent to an American observer, for white British people (for me at least) the media prototype of a devoted servant is someone like Sam Gamgee from LoTR or Bunter from the Peter Wimsey books, white, male and above all working class. Martha being coded middle class it was that much harder to recognise that she was being a servant rather than acting one. Sometimes an outsider perspective can be really illuminating.

Date: 2007-07-15 06:56 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] idyll.livejournal.com
I really like what you've said here and how you've said it. It's probably one of the best stated and easiest to understand posts I've seen this issue tackled.

I think that what you've put forth here is probably why some people in fandom shy away from writing characters of color. They might not have the exposure to the race/ethnicity to feel comfortable writing characters without a) mimicking a possibly poorly drawn canon characterization, or b) completely ignoring race/ethnicity to the point that they are drawing their own poor characterizations. They don't know what they don't know...if you know what I mean.
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