hth: (bitch please)
I think I'll quote somebody out of context, because that's always worked really well for me in the past.

Saying "black characters are written too broadly in New Who, making them resemble stereotypes" rather ignores the fact that white characters are treated the same way.

Look. This is the problem with trying to raise white people on Sesame Street in order to cure racism: you get a generation of white people who think it's to their credit that they hold everyone to the same standard, and run around operating like the world is one big, happy block party -- people who think they're complementing themselves when they say they're "colorblind."

BLIND is not a moral positive. BLIND is an inability to perceive what the non-blind people around you can clearly fucking see. My grandfather was red/green colorblind. His family also had a strawberry farm. His father used to beat him for not obeying instructions to pick only the RED strawberries and leave the GREEN ones on the bush.

Now, I'm not recommending regular beatings for the colorblind. That wasn't a nice thing to do (my great-grandfather was not a nice person in general, for oh so many reasons). But the thing is, my grandfather's colorblindness? Was a problem, because there is actually such a thing as color when it comes to strawberries, and it's easier to work on a strawberry farm when you can see it.

And there is actually such a thing as race. If you can't see it, you're not doing yourself or anyone else any favors. There are cases where you can give the EXACT SAME script/character arc/iconography/etc. to a white performer and to a performer of color, and the overall effect WILL BE DIFFERENT. Race is real. People respond to it, often on levels they aren't entirely aware of. So it actually misses the whole entire point of discussing race and racism if your sole defense is "but we're just treating them the exact same way we treat white characters!" It may be true, or it may not be true, but either way it's singularly useless.

Some fans seem to find gender easier to understand than race, so think of it this way: if there's a character that isn't very bright but always uses sexuality to manipulate other people, does it make a difference if that character is a man or a woman? Isn't it more of a stereotype in one case than in the other? And if some writer or producer said, "Oh, it's not sexist -- this is just what we were going to do, and we thought we might hire a male actor, but we went with a woman instead, so we kept the same stuff!" that doesn't magically make her not a sexist cliche, does it? If they'd cast a man, the character would read one way; when they do cast a woman, it reads differently. Same character. Different, because of the baggage we bring surrounding gender. If you were somehow magically oblivious to any and all gender issues, you might not notice that. But you wouldn't thereby be a better person than the rest of us. You'd just be oblivious.

Unfortunately, in our culture, we are conditioned to see white people as Real People, and black people as sort of thin slices of people, operating in one of a very few available modes and with only a very few emotions and interests. Therefore it's just different to write a white character "broadly" versus a black character. It's not enough to write the black character "just like" all your white characters, because race is not invisible to most of us and it doesn't have no consequences. In order to challenge people's already racist assumptions about black characters, writers have to work that much harder, and they have to work not blind. They have to work with their eyes open and their brains engaged and with the awareness of subtle signals and context and connotation that anyone who writes for a living should damn well be conversant with. To do less than that is to write lazily, to write foolishly, to write contemptuously of one's characters and one's craft, and to do all that because you can't or won't go the extra mile to bring race into the universe of stuff that factors into your writing does, in fact, have racist implications.

"Colorblindness" may be one's reason for making all of those mistakes, but it isn't an excuse, and it doesn't magically make the product impervious from criticism. Be less blind.

Date: 2007-07-14 09:45 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
Interesting points you're raising. I remember once a criticism of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series in which the critic pointed out that some of the character were described as black, but beyond they're physical description of them nothing about them acknowledging their non-European roots. They were black, so that the HP-verse could appear racially diverse without actually being culturally diverse. The criticism was fairly muddled, mind you, because it begged the question if Rowling had tried to make the black characters act "black" as the critic demanded, the likelihood of overdoing it and engaging in a racist cliche - not out of malice, but out of white, middle-class inexperience - would have been infinitely high.

Is a black token that acts white better than a racist cliche? Of course. The real question is if a black token is better than no racial diversity at all?

Ultimately it comes down to the same old conflict of individuality versus equality. The communists always hated the idea that people are born with talents. For them it was always nurture over nature. Meanwhile every sci-fi story written in the West is about the freedom of individual choices. The heroes of sci-fi are always claiming the right to be unhappy, to "grow old and ugly and impotent; the right to have syphilis and cancer; the right to have too little to eat; the right to be lousy; the right to live in constant apprehension of what may happen tomorrow; the right to catch typhoid; the right to be tortured by unspeakable pains of every kind" the right to be an individual.

Because the more you distance yourself,from the societal average, the more of an individual you are, the more likely you're are to be poor, helpless and miserable. An individual is, in the end, a minority of one.

Race is still a factor to define an individual as aberrant of the societal norm (the non-vacuum you're talking about), so the problem here is one that I consider unsolveable. It's easier to eliminate race as a defining factor of societal norms than to solve the problem here.

If a black actor should be given special consideration during the casting process, aren't we denying him the equality he deserves? And if we treat him colorblind, casting him as servant, minion, evildoer, villain, just we would cast a white actor aren't we ignorant, if not hurtful, of his special, individual circumstances?

And are we taking into account that Doctor Who (which I guess inspired this post) is British and has a less pronounced history with colored people in subservient roles? Has an entire non-American history where slavery was something that Britain profitted from but that never seemed to have happened on their own soil? Segragation never happened. No one ever sat on any backseats in any buses in Britain.

So is it possible that your sensibilities and Russell Whatshisface's are just continentally divided. So perhaps, the problem is that Russell can afford to be colorblind, because his country never needed to have thousands of black people marching for their capital to claim their equal rights.

Who is ultimately an underserving topic because you're splitting hairs from an American and very subjective perspective. If you want to find some real racism you should pick on American shows and their unfortunate tendency to cast Latinos as servants. When even a million dollar Latina like La Lopez at the height of her fame had to play the eponymous Maid in Manhattan you know you're looking at racism at its finest.

Date: 2007-07-14 10:34 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] rydra_wong
rydra_wong: Lee Miller photo showing two women wearing metal fire masks in England during WWII. (Default)
So is it possible that your sensibilities and Russell Whatshisface's are just continentally divided. So perhaps, the problem is that Russell can afford to be colorblind, because his country never needed to have thousands of black people marching for their capital to claim their equal rights.

As someone British, I can categorically state that Britain has had, and continues to have, major issues with racism. And we have a long tradition of activism being needed to claim equal rights here too.

No, racism here hasn't always manifested in exactly the same ways as in the US, and the history and context isn't identical.

But frankly - from my perspective, it's astonishingly naive to imagine that RTD (or anyone else) can "afford to be colourblind" because Britain is some magical racism-free paradise in which women of colour have never been oppressed or forced into subservient roles.

Date: 2007-07-15 12:40 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] danamaree.livejournal.com
ext_2138: (Default)
I can categorically state that Britain has had, and continues to have, major issues with racism

There is racism everywhere, but every nation has a different way of dealing with it, and different issues that come with it.

I lived in England for a year, and wow, I didn't realise how differently you guys handle race.

From one perspective, the use of the word Asian. You refer to Indians and Pakistanis as Asian, that confused me, in Australia Asians are Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese etc. That's just a matter of language, but I found that you guys are very casual in the workplace about being bigoted about the Irish, or the Welsh, or the French. I had no idea that there was such animosity, I'd never pick that up if I didn't live in the country.

Racism in Australia is different from the US. For instance, the major minority is indigenous, so there are land rights and cultural differences to consider. In the US, it seems to be all about the 'African American' which confuses me a little, because they get a lot of coverage about their rights, but nobody talks about the indigenous Americans, it's like they don't exist. I think that's so unfair, everyone in the US is came from other places, and the Indigenous Americans had their land taken away from them (just like here), but it's not even a big issue in the country.

It's certainly a huge one here. I think the person above wasn't saying that there is no racism in the UK, just that it's handled differently.

Date: 2007-07-15 01:56 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com
ext_6167: (Default)
I'm confused about the "african american" rights coverage too, believe me.

Also, ignoring Native people in the US serves a very specific purpose of marginalization, particularly when Indian lands hold so many energy and other natural resources that non-indians are very eager to exploit.

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Date: 2007-07-15 02:20 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] florence-craye.livejournal.com
I think that's so unfair, everyone in the US is came from other places, and the Indigenous Americans had their land taken away from them (just like here), but it's not even a big issue in the country.

Sadly, I think it's because there are so few Indigenous Americans left, that most Americans see them as non-existant or hardly even an issue. When you kill most of the population, it's as if they don't exist. Since they are not the major minority, their issues don't get as much coverage.

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Date: 2007-07-15 10:47 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] rydra_wong
rydra_wong: Lee Miller photo showing two women wearing metal fire masks in England during WWII. (Default)
It's certainly a huge one here. I think the person above wasn't saying that there is no racism in the UK, just that it's handled differently.

I agree that racism here manifests differently in a number of ways, and it can be problematic if people view things exclusively in US terms.

But I don't remotely think that it means anyone over here can "afford to be colorblind", which was the claim I was replying to.

And plenty of things really aren't that different.

For example, the term "Mammy" may be a specifically US inflection of a stereotype - but I can certainly tell you that the "black women as destined to be domestics and clean other people's houses" stereotype exists here.

And the "black women are less desirable than blonde white girls" stereotype - hell, yeah.

So I really find it irritating when people automatically use "... but the UK is DIFFERENT!" as a "get out of accusations of racism free" card.

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Date: 2007-07-15 02:09 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] vass
vass: Small turtle with green leaf in its mouth (Default)
For instance, the major minority is indigenous,

It is? *is Australian, and confused*

Can you please clarify what you mean there by major minority?

Here's the Census breakdown:
European - 89.3%
Asian - 5.1% (mainly Chinese, Filipino, Vietnamese)
Middle Eastern - 1.2% (mainly Lebanese, Turkish)
South Asian - 1.6% (mainly Indian, Sinhalese)
Aboriginal - 2.3%
Maori - 0.5%
Latino - 0.2%

It'd probably look very different if you did it by nation, not by continent, but I don't think the Census could cope with that.

For interest, here's the breakdown on first generation immigrants:
Most of us were born here: 4/5s, roughly. That includes the 2.3% of the population who are Aboriginal Australian. The other fifth are mostly whinging Poms and sheep-fucking Kiwis people from the UK and New Zealand (tell me again about how it's the Brits who indulge in casual bigotry and name-calling?)

The majority of illegal immigrants are from the UK and the US, and are visa overstayers - I mention that because it's a big thing here, and because the popular belief is that 'illegals' are mainly Asian or Arabic.

Date: 2007-07-15 08:51 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] oyceter
oyceter: teruterubouzu default icon (Default)
OMG thank you. I have just about had it with British people (surprisingly, always white!) coming in and claiming that Britain is some sort of racial paradise and has no racism at all.

I mean, clearly it is different and context is good and I in no way know enough. But yeah. When I keep hearing white British fans say that and hear POC and ally British fans say something else...

In conclusion, word, and thank you!

Date: 2007-07-16 06:37 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] rydra_wong
rydra_wong: Lee Miller photo showing two women wearing metal fire masks in England during WWII. (Default)
FWIW, I finally snapped and posted in my LJ about this:

http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/40851.html

Date: 2007-07-14 10:35 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] spiralsheep.livejournal.com
ext_939: Sheep wearing an eyepatch (Default)
I'm not surprised you chose anonymity to promote those views, identity-free responsibility-avoiding racism-promoting person.

The real question is if a black token is better than no racial diversity at all?

Possibly to someone who's foolish enough to believe those are the only two available possibilities because they're too racist to imagine the third option of fully rounded characters of colour. Luckily many of the other commenters in this debate aren't blinkered by your false dichotomy.

are we taking into account that Doctor Who (which I guess inspired this post) is British and has a less pronounced history with colored people in subservient roles? Has an entire non-American history where slavery was something that Britain profitted from but that never seemed to have happened on their own soil? Segragation never happened. No one ever sat on any backseats in any buses in Britain.

What? You clearly know nothing about the history of people of colour in Britain and if you'd watched old school Doctor Who you might remember the episode where Ace encounters the very real historical racist segregation and negative discrimination against people of colour. Just because social segregation and negative discrimination wasn't legally enforced in the same way as the U.S. doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it isn't still happening in subtle and not so subtle ways.

So perhaps, the problem is that Russell can afford to be colorblind, because his country never needed to have thousands of black people marching for their capital to claim their equal rights.

Have you heard of the Brixton riots in which British people of colour literally fought on the streets for their rights exactly as white Britons did from the Peasants Revolt onwards?

And your assertion that RTD thinks he's "colorblind" might explain, for example, the repeated racist acts of cultural appropriation in his episodes of new Who but it doesn't excuse them.

Who is ultimately an underserving topic because you're splitting hairs from an American and very subjective perspective.

Many British people of colour disagree with you. Luckily for us all, you're not in a position to decide what Britons, or anyone else, are allowed to think.

Date: 2007-07-14 11:23 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
So references to the American Hattie McDaniels to explain why Martha's role is in the tradition of entertainment that presents servants as black, but the acknowledgement that this tradition has never manifested itself in this form in Britain, because the default in British entertainment has been white regardless whether master or servant is not?

No one is saying that Britain is racist-free paradise. I am Pakistani and know better. But this American cultural hegemonial attempt to judge British tv shows as if there is no difference between Britain and the US is culturally imperialist bullshit. Martha is not a character from Gone With the Wind. To act as if all culture all over the world can be tarred with the same American brush is presumptive and offensive all on its own.

Possibly to someone who's foolish enough to believe those are the only two available possibilities because they're too racist to imagine the third option of fully rounded characters of colour. Luckily many of the other commenters in this debate aren't blinkered by your false dichotomy.

So you think that every writer, even a middle-class, white writer like Rowling who can't even get the white upper-class right is capable of portraying black British culture in a fully rounded character without getting it potentially offensively wrong? The dichtomy here with the Harry Potter example is not between portrayal as a token and not-portrayal, but between portrayal as nominally-black and probable offensive racist shit.

Date: 2007-07-15 12:05 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] spiralsheep.livejournal.com
ext_939: Sheep wearing an eyepatch (Default)
Still an anonymous troll I see.

references to the American Hattie McDaniels

I didn't make any references to Hattie McDaniels and I can't see the OP making references to Hattie McDaniels. You appear to be arguing with your own inventions.

this American cultural hegemonial attempt to judge British tv shows

You seem to be under the delusion that it's only Americans who think new Who is problematic in racist ways. To repeat my previous comment which you don't seem to have bothered to read: "Many British people of colour disagree with you." Pretending they don't exist is "bullshit" (to use your choice of term).

Martha is not a character from Gone With the Wind.

I didn't make any references to Gone With the Wind and I can't see the OP making references to Gone With the Wind. You appear, again, to be arguing with your own inventions.

So you think that every writer, even a middle-class, white writer like Rowling who can't even get the white upper-class right is capable of portraying black British culture in a fully rounded character without getting it potentially offensively wrong?

Do I? I had no idea. ;-)

But that's not what I said. I said about RTD's writing, and I quote, that I think there are: "repeated racist acts of cultural appropriation in his episodes of new Who." His report card from me would read: "Must try harder."

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From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-07-15 01:51 am (UTC) - Expand

Amen for ammendations

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am i going to have to...

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Re: Amen for ammendations

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Re: Amen for ammendations

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Re: Amen for ammendations

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Re: Amen for ammendations

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Re: Amen for ammendations

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Re: Amen for ammendations

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Date: 2007-07-15 01:52 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com
ext_6167: (Default)
i <3 brixton.

Date: 2007-07-14 10:51 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] wickedprincess3.livejournal.com
So perhaps, the problem is that Russell can afford to be colorblind, because his country never needed to have thousands of black people marching for their capital to claim their equal rights.
Wow, so life in magical fairy no-racism ever land must be awesome!

Too bad it doesn't exist :(

Date: 2007-07-14 11:29 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)
Perhaps you should take the perhaps into consideration and the attack on the original poster's stupid American attitude which sees Martha in the tradition of 400 years of American tradition of treating black people horribly and being generally okay with that. Britain is racist as shit, but it never institutionalised slavery on its own soil to the degree America did. But with American small cultural difference don't mean shit because the US is the one and only judge for how to perceive a black woman's role in a British tv show as it was intended to seen.

Date: 2007-07-15 12:08 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] spiralsheep.livejournal.com
ext_939: Sheep wearing an eyepatch (Default)
because the US is the one and only judge for how to perceive a black woman's role in a British tv show

Except that, as I keep pointing out to you, many British people of colour think that new Who is problematic in racist ways.

Date: 2007-07-15 04:25 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] hth-the-first.livejournal.com
Perhaps you should fuck off with telling me how I see the situation. I am so fucking sick to death of anonymous posters calling other people names; you're not just wrong, you're not just an asshole, but you're a coward as well.

I am ENTIRELY FUCKING AWARE that racial issues are different in Britain than they are in America. I am also entirely fucking aware that, as you've been told and have chosen to ignore, there are a wealth of British Who fans, white and non-white, who find it problematic from a British perspective. I know this because I FUCKING LISTEN when people talk, and I don't always assume I know what they secretly think better than they do.

My post was about the extreme likelihood that, if you think race is not an issue for you to be bothered with, you will have trouble dealing well with race. Conversely, if you listen and learn and pay attention to what various people's various racial baggage actually is, you can navigate it better. I arrived at many of my feelings about what's going on in Who through that exact process. I fucking listened to people -- from all over the world, and of many racial backgrounds -- tell me what reactions it brought up in them.

You, on the other hand, have assumed an enormous number of things about my attitude and my critical perspective, based apparently on nothing more than knowing I'm an American. You are wrong about all of them. You are also grossly, stupidly wrong in your attempt to make a simple, one-to-one correlation between institutionalized slavery and servanthood/servitude, and to suggest that because Britain has made very minor use of the first, its history and issues surrounding the second are therefore insignificant. You fail.

Don't fucking come into my journal acting like you're remotely interested in having a conversation with me, then flatly call me stupid, judgmental, and imperialistic, you two-faced troll.

Date: 2007-07-18 01:22 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] teh-nos.livejournal.com
Our slavery problem is that maybe that we like to pretend we never got involved in slavery. We avoid the "black maids" issue by having a whole other set of discriminations at work in our serving history. However, I don't think "black woman in subservient role" is alien enough to not strike us as A Bit Wrong.

Date: 2007-07-15 12:31 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] danamaree.livejournal.com
ext_2138: (Default)
So perhaps, the problem is that Russell can afford to be colorblind, because his country never needed to have thousands of black people marching for their capital to claim their equal rights.

I think this is something that everyone in this discussion should think more about. I believe that there is more cultural differences then people quite understand.

If your nation dominates culturally with movies and television, there isn't any need to think about how non-Americans think about social issues. Americans don't grow up watching foreign television.

It's just weird from my POV, I've grown up watching American television, being fed American culture, it's makes up more then 50 percent of the television I see every night on free to air. Everyone thinks that my country is little clone copy of the United States, because we happen to be a western nation with a predominant white christian population. But in so many ways, some subtle, some not so much we are a very different culture, different history, different political affiliations, different understanding of the world.

Australian fans, much like, I suspect British or European fans learn to be more bilingual with cultural issues, from watching American television we know American phrases, we know American issues, but then we live in our every day world with values, culture, phrases which are different.

American fans, well, not all of them, not all the time, have the luxury of watching television from their own nation, understanding all the in-jokes (sayings and in-jokes in Buffy which I still don't understand, although I love the show greatly). Rarely get to watch foreign television, and learn that things can be seen differently.

I'm trying not to be patronising, a lot of Americans, especially in fandom are knowlegeable about the world, a lot have travelled, but I do find a bit of a blind spot at times.

To me, from my perspective as an Australian woman, who grew up in the country, cultural difference is bigger then race, class or gender. It's a huge disservice for Americans to impose their racial, political, or historical issues on any other nation. And to assume that I, as a non-American will automatically take on values that some might say is universal, but I see as just American.

(it's like the biggest issue I have with SGA is wondering where the hell the other nationalities are on the show, other then the American and Canadians, it's supposed to be a international expedition peoples! Which part of international do you not understand *glares at writers*, but it doesn't become a huge issue in fandom because most of fandom is American).

Date: 2007-07-15 02:20 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] scrollgirl.livejournal.com
ext_2353: amanda tapping, chris judge, end of an era (Default)
(it's like the biggest issue I have with SGA is wondering where the hell the other nationalities are on the show, other then the American and Canadians, it's supposed to be a international expedition peoples! Which part of international do you not understand *glares at writers*, but it doesn't become a huge issue in fandom because most of fandom is American).

Hey, as a Canadian, let me tell you that we all REJOICED to finally see a Canadian in the Stargate universe. Considering 2/5ths of SG-1's regular cast was Canadian (Shanks and Tapping) and that 4/5ths of SGA's Season 1 cast was Canadian (everybody but Flanigan), considering the show is filmed in Canada, with guest actors predominantly Canadian, considering Stargate Command is supposedly directly under NORAD, it was about damn time they gave us a Canadian character. Yay McKay!

Totally agree we need more nationalities on SGA though. Maybe some Asian military? A couple of non-white scientists?

Date: 2007-07-15 02:31 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] danamaree.livejournal.com
ext_2138: (Default)
A couple of non-white scientists?

Totally! It's the perfect opportunity to have people from different backgrounds and races. *flails* and yet the writers so lose with this.

And also, it would be so interesting if they make the potential conflict of interest of each nation become of a storyline. There are conflicts issues between the forces in Iraq that fight together, so it's very relevant.

You can't tell me that a British servicemen loyalties would be torn between his country, and that of the command of Atlantis, which is American, civilian and military.

So much potential. *grrr*

Date: 2007-07-15 05:49 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] harriet-spy.livejournal.com
Americans don't grow up watching foreign television.

That's kind of funny in the context of a discussion of Dr. Who.

it's like the biggest issue I have with SGA is wondering where the hell the other nationalities are on the show, other then the American and Canadians, it's supposed to be a international expedition peoples!

Well, not that I wouldn't mind seeing more non-Americans on the show, but of the lead characters up to mid-S3, there are two Americans (Sheppard and Weir), one Canadian (McKay), one Scot (Beckett), and two aliens (Teyla Emmagen and Ronon Dex). The two major recurring characters are an American (Lorne) and a Czech (Zelenka). We see background characters with different flags all the time. More non-American one-shot characters would be super-welcome (though there's of course the restriction that soldiers have to be Americans, which gets in the way of more non-American redshirts), but three out of eight Americans in the major cast is actually pretty respectable. Especially given that in the SG universe, Stargate command is an American institution, albeit under international oversight.

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From: [personal profile] vass - Date: 2007-07-15 02:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-07-15 08:47 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] liviapenn.livejournal.com
ext_108: Jules from Psych saying "You guys are thinking about cupcakes, aren't you?" (Default)

It kind of seems to me like this conflicts with what other people were saying earlier in the discussion, though.

Some people are saying "It doesn't matter that British tv shows are reproducing racial stereotypes most commonly found in American literature and film, because the issues are different over here."

But, as you point out, American pop culture has infiltrated many other countries, and many people of other nationalities have become familiar with American issues, culture, values, history, etc.

I don't see it as "imposing American values" on other cultures to point out that RTD is using a cliche which has become a really common stereotype in films, books and tv *that RTD would have been exposed to*. I'd feel the same way about an American movie that used a racist cliche with its origins in British history-- like the way a lot of modern war films hearken back to films like "Zulu."

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From: [personal profile] vass - Date: 2007-07-15 02:27 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [personal profile] vass - Date: 2007-07-15 02:41 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] liviapenn.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-07-15 11:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-07-16 12:42 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] brownbetty
brownbetty: (Default)
Hi. You seem to have a problem with your brain being missing.

Date: 2007-07-18 12:16 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] preachelectric
preachelectric: (Default)
See icon. :)

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