MY FUCKING FANDOM GIVES ME FUCKING FITS, part 34,849

[hth]

Warning: the following is not nice. It is not just, it is not kind, it is not respectful, and it may not even be sane. I may regret it in the morning, I don't know.



In clicking randomly through lj links this evening, I ran across a post-ep entry from somebody whose name I know from SGA fandom -- I specify that because I want to say she's not someone I have some kind of pre-existing grudge toward; I really only recognize the name and know nothing about her, really (I'm even only assuming it's a "her," out of statistical likelihood). And even though I've been frothing at the mouth for an hour now, I'm not trying to put her in particular on the spot for Fandom Crimes writ large, which is the reason I'm not naming her or being super-specific; I suppose she'd recognize herself, and maybe some other people would, too, but mainly I'm hoping it's anonymous enough to let me vent without putting her in an embarrassing position.

That said.

There was a person, right, a relatively prolific writer of and about Sheppard/McKay, and she'd seen an episode, and the episode contained some pretty obscure potential subtext between two characters that she particularly dislikes as a pairing -- enough that she felt it might give people an excuse to write fic about this pairing. And to paraphrase, she basically said, Oh, God, I hate CharacterZ/CharacterQ, and lately everyone seems to love them, and this will only get those other fans all excited. Maybe I'll just unsubscribe from sga_noticeboard until I don't have to worry about seeing all those CharacterZ/CharacterQ stories floating around.

And I don't exactly know where to begin, but I just -- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom. YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING. You are everywhere. Your pairing is everywhere. Are we even *on* the same sga_noticeboard? People are writing you literally a dozen or more stories PER DAY, all about your darling lovelies. YOU HAVE FUCKING WON, ALL RIGHT? Now get off our fucking backs!

I don't know if there will be a mad upsurge in Z/Q fic, but I'm pretty sure that if so, "mad upsurge"=maybe five or six stories MAX, TOTAL written by X/Q fans in response to Episode T. But your VIRGIN FUCKING EYEBALLS aren't capable of doing what we plebes do every day of our lives and PAGING DOWN your flist, past the links to the stories you don't want to read? You're too goddamn good for that? The mere knowledge that other people are out there writing their crazy Other Pairings is so upsetting for you that you have to go lie down with a cold compress until it's over?

Well, lucky fucking you -- because it will be over. If I want to unsub and come back when everybody's writing what I want and not writing what I don't want, I'll be gone for a factor of FOREVER.

And you know what? I do truly think that's what a lot of people want. I think there's a stratum of this fandom that would like people like me to just go away, because all we're doing is breathing the oxygen of the McKay/Sheppard people. And it's not just that they don't like our pairings and they don't care what we do -- I've never read a Lorne/Parrish story in my life, because I don't care and I don't want to; I'm not saying everyone needs to be a fan of everything. It goes way past that. It's not "well, whatever you want, I'll be over here doing my thing," it's this attitude like we are an actual drag to have co-existing within the same fandom. You have to UNSUB? SERIOUSLY? So you don't accidentally read our HEADERS?

I've been doing this fandom thing for many years now (10 years! Jesus Christ!), and I feel like I've had a really successful fangirl career. I'm not the best writer in the fandom; I'm probably not even the tenth best writer in the fandom, but those other ten girls are so fucking AWESOME that they deserve their spots in the sun, and in most cases I'm, no shit, the biggest fan they have. But I'm proud of what I write, and I get some of the best feedback on the planet -- I'm consistently amazed at the time and the attention that my little cadre of readers invests, time and again, in what I write. I'm happy being the kind of writer I am -- I mean, if I weren't, it's not like I'm too stupid to figure out what kind of thing I should be writing to get more attention. If I needed universal validation, I wouldn't have spent the last month of my life writing a giant fucking het epic with an OFC; the story before that I wouldn't have shot John; I'd do a lot of things differently, if being in the mainstream of SGA fandom was my big goal. I love what I do and I wouldn't change it for the world, and I've never been less than humbled and amazed by the attention I do get. This is to say: I'm not on this Earth to win over the McShep brigade, and they could ignore me until the end of time and it really wouldn't phase me at all.

What leaves me shocked and hurt and angry isn't that there's a large segment of the fandom that doesn't care for/about what I do. It's that I genuinely feel like they want us gone -- like they feel that SGA fandom and all its associated pan-fandom space (like noticeboard, for example) is and should be and deserves to be the property of its largest contingent -- as if the fandom should be majority-rules and that those of us who are hanging around loving the fuck out of X/Q or A/C or O/P or whatever it is we're passionate about are basically in the way. We're a nuisance that they have no choice but to wait out, hoping that soon the fandom can go back to what they basically think it is anyway: the glee club for the John and Rodney Show.

And, you know, a huge part of me wants to do exactly that. The constant, steady, relentless drumbeat of OMG DON'T YOU JUST LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME?!!?11! is wearing enough as it is -- and I'm not even anti- the pairing. It's just like somebody trying to get you to eat strawberry shortcake seven times a day, every day of your life. Strawberry shortcake is *fine,* it's nice, I like it perfectly well, right up until the day when you hit that wall and all you can think is JESUS, SHUT THE FUCK UP, I'LL HURL ALL OVER THE FLOOR IF I SEE ONE MORE STRAWBERRY FUCKING SHORTCAKE. And that's sad, because it's a nice dessert, and McKay/Sheppard is a nice pairing (I have at least ten or twelve stories within it saved in my permanent collection of Bulletproof Fic that I read every time I need my comfort fix). Even if I had the power, I wouldn't want to stop people from digging on their favorite thing and I don't want to make them feel guilty for doing so, which is why I put 99% of the burden on myself. I avoid the places I know I can expect the especially shrill and piercing variety of squee that I know rubs me the wrong way. I choose what I click and don't click on. I tailor my Fandom Experience so that I stay as much as possible out of the situations that I know will set me off (obviously, I'm not successful every single day). And on the days when all of that feels impossible, like an umbrella in a hurricane, yeah, I consider severing my ties with this fandom.

But, you know, there's a lot that I'd miss, too. And I kind of like being the Loyal Opposition -- I think we're worth something, me and the rest of the fans who love our X/Q and our O/P and our other pairings that y'all think are weird and boring and squicky and totally violate the perfect purity of Rodney & John's eternal bliss. And basically, if we can slog along, hoping for our little moments, hoping this'll be the one day this week when one of our own will pop up with a story in our beloved pairing, patiently hitting our scroll button over and over and knowing that the charge we get will be even better for having had to wait for it and discover it -- then you can surely endure to have us around. And any suggestion that you can't endure it, or that you have to run and flee and hide from reminders that we exist -- well, that's just being a bad fucking winner.

There's such a thing as Carson fans in this fandom. There's such a thing as Teyla fans. There's such a thing as Elizabeth fans in this fandom. PLEASE BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY, WE HAVE ALL HAD A HARD YEAR OF IT. We've taken hit after hit, only to have people who write stories that suggest that John and Rodney live alone on a space station somewhere tell us that we're big whiners and anything short of being totally stoked about s4 is childish and unfair. If you can't possibly find it within yourself to be sympathetic allies, even though your guys still are and always will be the leads and you don't have to worry that you'll ever be in our position -- if you can't be our friends in this, please at least refrain from acting as if you resent the pieces of the fandom we've carved out for ourselves, and most of all refrain from suggesting that public SGA fandom space isn't large enough for all of us at once. Because we all know that you're not going anywhere. Nor should you have to.

Nor should we.

Comments

You have every right to vent.

[mz-bstone.livejournal.com]

Just as that other fan did. She might feel that a lot of her favourites have migrated to other fandoms, or other pairings, or it might be the pairing itself that hits some tic she's got. So she gripes about it in her LJ. And it hits a nerve, makes you feel like you're unwelcome. And you respond:

And I don't exactly know where to begin, but I just -- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom. YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING. You are everywhere. Your pairing is everywhere. Are we even *on* the same sga_noticeboard? People are writing you literally a dozen or more stories PER DAY, all about your darling lovelies. YOU HAVE FUCKING WON, ALL RIGHT? Now get off our fucking backs!

Which is, in it's way, as upsetting to me as her post was to you. You express what troubles you, what bothers you. Intellectually I appreciate that. And I don't deny that McShep has a huge presence in the fandom. I know that it's frustrating when you can't find things that answer your tastes. I've been in fandoms like that. So you vent, and it's perfectly reasonable to do so.

However, as a fan who likes McShep but is perfectly happy to have an abundance of other stuff, when people post what you post -- and it happens more than you might realize, since you have the feeling that you're tastes are unwelcome, so you see those posts and think, hey, someone agrees with me -- I feel rather hunted and unwelcome, if you can see that, because I see several of them, and often they don't even throw in the word "wing".

I think the majority of McShep fans, based on off-LJ coversations I have, are probably in my school of "hey, whatever!". We don't comment one way or the other about other pairings because we don't care. Shake your own groove-thing, bake your own beautiful cake, whatever works. It's just that the people who are more ... missionary (hrm. my brain went to the bad place.) in their fannish zeal say stuff, while those who don't care, nod, shrug, think: pull a seat up, have fun and then we move on back to doing our own thing. If you're neutral, you tend to not comment one way or the other because it's not a big deal when alternate pairing orientations are represented. We're just enjoying what we enjoy, and more power to you.

So saying things like "self-centred" and "motherfuckers" and "get off our back", while totally within your rights to vent in your space? Are just as unwelcoming and fracturing as what the first fan said. Hell, when I was writing more, I made some effort to be more than just McShep, because it's a good show and I liked to play in the puddles and I wanted to give to others, as well. Mostly? I try to be a good neighbour, and while you maybe don't mean me, it doesn't come across that way.

You have every right to vent. I just wish I didn't feel bad about liking what I like after, you know? I wish the words you used didn't leave me feeling ... not offended, I guess. Slapped, maybe.


B

Re: You have every right to vent.

[astolat]

What she said.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I get where you're coming from. I mean, obviously my words were not intended to make everyone feel warm and comfortable and affirmed, any more than hers were, so by that standard -- yeah. It's fair to say that we're both being totally judgmental about what other people prefer to do and say.

The thing is -- and I don't know, maybe I should have done more qualifying and whatnot, because the things that I think go without saying...don't always go without saying.

The thing is, I'm sorry you feel slapped, because I wasn't talking about you. You? Sound like the perfect McShep fan -- someone who likes the show overall and tries to write about them embedded in the world of the show, with fair viewings of other characters, and who embrace the "pull up a seat, have fun" philosophy. People like that needn't have any sense that anything I've said here is aimed at them. It's aimed at other people entirely.

And I know it's not the most conciliatory or compassionate or Buddha-like point of view, but I do sort of think a lot of those people, based on what I know of them through their publically posted words, come off as self-centered motherfuckers. Are they? Well, probably not 24/7. But let's just say, I don't think their shippiness is bringing out the best in these people. I don't know, is it wrong to say that? Is it fracturing and divisive within fandom to say that there are people I dislike and this is why?

Yeah, maybe I should've taken more time to stop and say -- again, I thought it was obvious, but of course it's easy to forget how many people may read this who don't know a thing about me (esp. when metafandom gets involved!) -- that I don't hate this pairing and I don't hate all its shippers. I don't even hate *most* of its shippers. In the grand scheme of things, very few.

But you can look at a lot of these comments and see that there's a climate -- unintentional, I know, but real -- within SGA that makes people who are *not* McKay/Sheppard shippers feel marginal, extraneous to the fandom, not very highly valued. When you start out with a group of people who feel that way, it doesn't take all that many people being actively dickish to get to a very combustible point. Should I have a thicker skin, and keep in mind the majority of shippers who are indifferent to me rather than annoyed by me? Probably. Yeah.

Regardless, I'm sorry that you now feel bad about liking what you like. The point of the strawberry shortcake metaphor was to emphasize that I don't find anything ipso facto wrong or gross or weird about liking McShep. To quote myself, Even if I had the power, I wouldn't want to stop people from digging on their favorite thing and I don't want to make them feel guilty for doing so, and I *mean* that, and if I should've said it eight more times to make you believe it, then I guess I should've done that. It's not about that. It's not at all about that, and it's frustrating to see people I *do* consider allies from the next village over react as if I'm implicating them.

I don't want to alienate friends in McShep Town. I don't want them to change their ways. But nor do I want people who I think are *not* my friends and have an actual grudge against me have free reign through the fandom so that I don't risk upsetting people who are peripheral to the argument. I have no idea how to resolve that.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[medie]

I get the frustration, REALLY I do. I've spent my fair share of time bitching about other pairings in my fandoms. Sooner or later, everybody does.

That's kind of the point. No matter how patient, accepting, whatever, sooner or later somebody's going to snap and say something stupid, irrational, or whatever in their journal.

In SGA I've seen John/Teyla fans do it, I've seen Sheppard/Weir fans do it, I've seen just about every single possible pairing fan out there do it. I multiship so I cross the slash, het and femslash lines of pairings and one thing holds constant for all of them.

They all make those kinds of bitchy comments sooner or later where they're convinced that the other pairing fans are, well, engaging in the perceptions you detailed above. Hell, I've seen it three or four times tonight on my flist alone (spin off, I'm guessing from this) and all from fans of varying pairings. Very few of them shared the same pairing.

And yeah, as someone who indulges in the odd bit of John/Rodney (and ironically, felt more accepted and encouraged by fans of that pairing than any of the others I dabble with combined), I was more slapped in the face by what you said than what you related this other person as saying cause, frankly, I've *heard* that stuff so many times and from so many different corners. It's par for the course. I hear it regularly said of John/Rodney but, I suppose, that's because it makes a bigger and therefore easier target.

I hate to say it but, with stuff like this but I just -- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom. YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING. ? Even the 'sane' John/Rodney fans are likely to feel like they just got poked in the eye.

God knows I do right now. I'm certainly not going to stop liking the pairing but, up until this point? I'd heard your name associated with nothing but good (and I would've loved to read the OC heavy fic. They are made of win) but right now? Not so much. I mean, I GET the frustration. God knows I've had that moment myself more than once. But, yeah, a little, er, well shell-shocked? :)

Re: You have every right to vent.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

hate to say it but, with stuff like this but I just -- I continue to be so fucking appalled at the outrageously self-centered, entitled, black-hole-of-need wing of McShep fandom. YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING. ? Even the 'sane' John/Rodney fans are likely to feel like they just got poked in the eye.

I really wish people could take a step back and just realize-- if you're not part of that *wing of fandom* that she's talking about, then this rant is not about you, and Hth is not talking about you, and there's absolutely no reason-- no reason in the world-- to be taking this personally.

If you're not acting like people who don't "see the John/Rodney" are blind and stupid and shouldn't be watching the show, and if you aren't posting rants about how you can't even stand to see non-J/R fans post their stories in public places, then this rant isn't aimed at you.

But the thing is, a lot of people *are* acting like that-- acting like McShep ought to be *everyone's* OTP and if you don't see it, you're watching the show "wrong" and you might as well just leave the fandom because no one wants to hear about your non-J/R crap. Those are the people that Hth is talking about.

And I think it's pretty clear from the first 50 or so comments on her post that she is not the only one who perceives that there is a vocal segment of McShep fans-- not a *large* percentage, I don't think, but a very *loud* percentage-- who *are* purposely going around raining on other people's parades.

That goes beyond the usual "my ship vs. your ship" sniping, and it becomes a lot more hurtful than the usual sniping, when it comes from a group that is already in the majority and is never likely to have any serious competition in fandom.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[medie]

People act like that no matter what the pairing is and no matter how many people 'ship it. It's not particularly right of any of them but singling out one group?

And I did notice the 'wing' comment. However, it didn't really negate the fact that it the rest of the post is still going to impact on people who enjoy the pairing and aren't regularly engaging in that particular behavior.

This also goes beyond the usual 'my ship vs. your ship' sniping and people are going to object to it. Even if I didn't enjoy reading John/Rodney, if I were say a hardcore John/Teyla or Teyla/Lorne fan or whatever, I'd still be objecting to it.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

And I did notice the 'wing' comment. However, it didn't really negate the fact that it the rest of the post is still going to impact on people who enjoy the pairing and aren't regularly engaging in that particular behavior.

Um... but how, exactly? How will it impact them?

If I make a post to my LJ saying "Some Rodney fans are assholes who think everything has to be about Rodney and they show this by behaving in X, Y and Z ways," then if you're *not acting in those ways*, it's not about you, even if you're a Rodney fan.

If I make a post saying "Some slash stories are misogynist because they include X, Y and Z things," if your slash stories don't include those things, then it's not about you, even if you're a slasher.

And if Hth says *some specific McShep fans* are acting like assholes, that has *nothing* to do with McShep fans in general. Yeah, you can take it personally if you absolutely want to, but... why? It's really not about McShep fans in general, and she couldn't have *made* that more clear, could she?

I've stepped back and I'm still confused

[(Anonymous)]

Is somebody really going to read this and say, "Yep, I'm a member of the Motherfucking Asshole McSheps. She must be talking to me." It might seem polite to couch everything in nebulous "x, y and z" but in the end, nothing is served by it. Those to whom it's addressed can't see themselves and the rest are all, "excuse me, but I'm not a motherfucker." If one is looking to affect the behavior of a specific person or persons, wouldn't it be more effective to discuss it with them directly?

Eurydice

Re: You have every right to vent.

[miera-c.livejournal.com]

I really wish people could take a step back and just realize-- if you're not part of that *wing of fandom* that she's talking about, then this rant is not about you, and Hth is not talking about you, and there's absolutely no reason-- no reason in the world-- to be taking this personally.

I'm... so not buying that argument. Sorry, but I don't.

There's a blanket implication being made here about McShep fans. You can't say "OMG ALL THE PEOPLE IN A GROUP ASSOCIATED WITH X ARE MOTHERFUCKING EVIL ASSHOLES!" and then, when people in that general group start reacting badly, just handwave their objections away by going "Oh, but I didn't mean *you* in particular, cause clearly *you* are not like the rest of them - the people that I hate so much - and since that's clear why are you reacting badly that's not fair how dare you try to silence me!"

It just doesn't fly.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY OWN EVERYTHING.

yeah. I think I'd have known from the first (had I bothered to think about it) that would be the most controversial thing I said. And I can see how it creates confusion for some people about whom, exactly, I was trying to poke. I'm highly relieved that a lot of my positive comments have been from self-described McShep fans who did get the distinction, but I'm not surprised that there were also people who were left really puzzled and frustrated.

I'm certainly not going to stop liking the pairing

I want you to know -- and I tried to say this within the post itself, but I think it got lost in the sound & fury -- that I would have no desire for you to do that. As I tried to say, even *I* like the pairing. It's not my favorite, but it's on the list of pairings I read, *and write.* What on earth would I gain by making people stop liking it? If I were the Queen of Fandom, I would be *adding to* the list of things people like and appreciate, not in any way subtracting from it. Never, at all.

The sense I have that McShep "owns everything" in the fandom doesn't translate into wanting to defeat it in some way. It's a little like -- well, like heterosexuality. Every queer person I've ever known has those times when they feel like the het is *everywhere,* on tv, on the radio, in books, in their friends' lives, it's embedded into the public discourse. And every queer person I've ever known has at one point or another said something like, "If I have to see one more fucking movie about straight people, I swear to god...." There's a very deep and very real frustration associated with feeling like you are invisible and this thing that doesn't accurately represent you is inescapable, and that people largely accept that as the normal state of affairs.

Does this mean I actually frown on straight people making movies about straight people? God, no. Most of my favorite movies feature straight people! And more than that, it absolutely doesn't mean that I don't love my straight friends, and support them and wish them love and happiness. My frustration is real, but it's about wanting to see *more,* wanting the world to open up and see a lot of different things as worthy and human and delicious, even if they are strange or uncommon. It's not about wanting to take things away from other people, at all.

And I can see that for people who don't know me, who are surfing in and catching only this piece of me, this deep frustration with a situation where I feel invisible and absent and too many people seem to accept that as the norm -- I can see how it comes across as awful and hateful and stomping all over the McShep. That's going to be the natural consequence of not writing this up as a careful, well-edited opinion piece -- of doing it instead while leading with my Angry Baton of Angriness. This is why people don't usually recommend doing that. *g*

I admire anyone who comes into a thread like this, where so many people are venting and purging, and says something as honest as what you're saying: that you want to listen, but you're defensive and hurt at the same time. I can see why the latter is true; you're a brave soul to maintain the first simultaneously. I can't even express to you how much I appreciate your participation here, and I hope something I've rambled on about here will help clarify what's happening with me right now and why.

I said at the end of the original post, and I really meant it very sincerely, that what I want is allies, what I want is friends. Not converts, not people who've come to Jesus and renounced their own fannish loyalties in favor of mine. I want people who root for me to get what I want, even as they get what they want, people who think that fandom should be a win-win proposition. I have those people; I wish I had more of them.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[medie]

at would be the most controversial thing I said.

That's the most vehement part which does, naturally, draw a lot of attention but the whole of the post just...It's been a while since a post in fandom's been able to make me sit back and blink. That's the best example of what bothered me about it, but the whole post collectively hit a nerve in me that, I have to say, I'd've probably felt whether or not I had any John/Rodney inclinations at all.

have no desire for you to do that.

Pshaw, don't worry about that one. *G* It would take a *LOT* for me to even consider feeling guilty about a pairing. I cheerfully equate a lot of my fannish experience to my time in Season 8 X-Files. I was a self-admitted Doggett/Scully 'shipper and writer of said pairing in a fandom where being a DSR fan meant it was open season on your ass. I don't think there was ever a story I posted of that pairing that I wasn't actively flamed over by Mulder/Scully fans, called a fickle fan, a traitor, a thousand other names (among which motherfucker would've actually been tame). MSR fans running 'fandom-wide lists' banned any mention of Doggett much less Doggett/Scully, some wrote stories that were meant to appear to be Doggett and DSR friendly only to have him rape her or kill her or turn into some sort of crazy ass monster by the end of it and then said fans would laugh and mock anybody who complained on open newsgroups and mailing lists.

After that? it takes a heckuva lot to make me reconsider any of my pairings. Which is probably why I have such a long list of them *G*

can see how it comes across as awful and hateful and stomping all over the McShep.

*nods* so very true. It really does look that way and without knowing any fannish history or personality, it looks like it's just the latest in a very long line (seriously, alas, I see more anti-McShep behavior in fandom than I do the other way around) of posts taking a strip of McShep fans for existing.

And seriously, I really do get the frustration. In addition to multishipping, I'm multifannish and hang out in Supernatural where I am not a Wincest fan. I spend like half my time explaining to Wincest fans I'm not out to have 'em tarred and feathered, the other half cultivating my own wee little fandom. There are days, if I let loose, I wouldn't stop ranting until doomsday *G*

usually recommend doing that. *g*

This is why I have a snark/bitch filter actually *G* I have a small group of people on it that I know will GET when I am irrationally pissed (not that it stops them from telling me to shaddup *G* bless 'em) and thus, I get to look like the generally happy, sweet as honey, stereotypically polite Canadian the world expects me to be *G*

I can't even express to you how much I appreciate your.

Oh no problem. Seriously, this? The first time I've ever tried to say something like this and gotten thanked for it *G* That's...that's definitely a first. And like I said, believe me, I get the frustration.

And this one occured to me today as it's the last week of the month (OMG) I handle the volunteer assignments over at stargateficrec. Whether or not a pairing gets recced for a month in that community depends on the fans of those pairings. There's 2 categories that usually, I can depend on to have a volunteer without prompting. That's John/Rodney & Jack/Daniel. Every other pairing, I inevitably have to get out the "inactive category" threat. I may get a volunteer, but it takes a bit.

There are 1050 fans watching the community so the only thing holding back the representation of non-McShep pairings on that comm are the fans themselves.

people who think that fandom should be a win-win proposition. I

Oh god, don't we all. I joked last night to a friend, after reading some of the comments here (not made by you) that between writing fic that's non-McShep, running challenges and bending over backwards to make sure there's enough prompts and such in the SGA section that aren't McShep about the only thing left I can do is sign over my first born. Course, I have to *HAVE* it first, but hey! I can always promise! *G* But yes, there needs to be a lot more of fans having the awareness of other fans and the 'ship and let 'ship.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[lamardeuse.livejournal.com]

But you can look at a lot of these comments and see that there's a climate -- unintentional, I know, but real -- within SGA that makes people who are *not* McKay/Sheppard shippers feel marginal, extraneous to the fandom, not very highly valued.

And McKay/Sheppard fans can look at the frequent complaints about the prevalence of this pairing, the snide snickering about "McSheep", the suggestions that M/S fans are somehow following a trend blindly and thus are somehow less valid fans than those of rarer pairings, and the implications that the fans who create M/S stories and artwork are doing so out of a cynical desire to be popular rather than out of a sincere enjoyment of the dynamic and the chemistry between the characters - well, they might take all of that and feel like they're being booted in the metaphorical prunes for liking what they like.

Perspective is a bitch, ain't it? That's been my experience of fannish unpleasantness; I have not seen this post you're talking about, nor have I seen any other posts by McSheppers bitching about other pairings, and I have a hell of a lot more McShep fans on my list than rarepair fans. I have, however, seen a lot of examples of the above sort of unpleasantness, and not only in the responses to this post. And I could get pissed off about it and rant, but I don't, because there's not much point, and no way that it wouldn't end up sounding hurtful to some. I'm glad you feel you have a point to this, but I hope it won't end up creating more bad feelings in the fandom. There's no need for it, because as you say, there's room for everyone.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[tagore.livejournal.com]

Bravo.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying, I really do. And I agree with you, to a point, in that I have seen and experienced negativity flowing the other direction as well, from the Miscellaneous Weirdos toward the McShep shippers. That's real as well, and I won't pretend it's not. I also won't excuse or validate it, and even in the midst of my anger, I hope you'll notice I didn't repeat any of those stereotypes you mention, because they're uncool and I don't believe them. I didn't say that McShep shippers were cynical, or that their fanwork derived from a desire to be popular, or from a vapid blindness and inability to think for themselves. Just like McShep has its Regrettable Wingnut contingent, so do we, and it's totally fair of you to point that out.

I'm not wholly certain it's fair to say that they are equal and opposite, however -- and this is where I have to try to speak carefully, because this is a hard thing to say, and I'm clearly not on my game this weekend with the communication thing. It's like -- okay, there's the mass of SGA fans who are just cool and like what they like and don't give anyone a hard time -- the group we all like to hope we belong to *g* -- and we'll leave them out of it, regardless of where they fall on pairing preferences. They're fine. Then there's a segment of McShep people who suck and make other people feel bad for doing their thing, and a segment of other-pairing people who suck and make other people feel bad for doing their thing.

What makes it tough, I think, is that there's a power imbalance between those two groups, within the fandom -- where I'm defining "power within fandom" as the power to get the things you want out of fandom. Power isn't good or bad, of itself, it's just a thing that is, and all else being equal, most of us would rather have it than not. And McShep Wingnuts are being bitchy *while they enjoy the benefits of the fandom-power they command through the size of the ship.* The Other-Pairing Wingnuts are being bitchy from a losing position. I have a long history of sympathy with the losers; it's my bone-deep, second-generation hippie-pinko-liberal instincts coming out. I have what theologians call a "preferential option" for people who are in the minority, who feel disenfranchised, who have less power to control their environment than other people do.

Ergo, while admitting that bad behavior is bad behavior, and while not endorsing it in anyone's case...I also can't help applying context to it, and you can see where my sympathies end up when I do. Perspective does have a lot to do with...well, everything in life, really. You're very right about that. Hopefully this helps shed some light for you on where I'm coming from with my perspective.

I definitely support your choice not to get pissed off and rant about it; I wish I hadn't. I wish I had gone to bed, gotten up, had breakfast, then sat down and written a more cogent and thoughtful piece. That's not what I did. I know that, and I know that a lot of people who might otherwise taken a chance on me and really listened were instead put off immediately by the tenor of the whole thing, and wrote me off instantly as a bitter wingnut booting people in the prunes for liking a particular pairing. When I said it's a pairing that I like as well, that it's one I read, that would have gone a lot further if it hadn't come three paragraphs after I stopped yelling like a madwoman.

I'm ambivalent about the issue of "creating more bad feelings in the fandom," because there's already a lot of that. God knows I have bad feelings about a lot of things. That's unavoidable at this point; I think the best we can hope for is to deal with the bad feelings that are there. However, what I am sorry for is that I think I might have been someone who had some credibility at one point -- hell, I'm one of the contributors to Surfacing, just like you are. I think if I'd kept my wits about me and kept my rhetorical shit together, I could have made a better case for my position, as someone who is an outsider to the ship but a fan of the pairing. I don't think I had to be the bad guy, except that I put myself in exactly that role by giving in to the temptation to vent rather than to build a case.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[lamardeuse.livejournal.com]

What makes it tough, I think, is that there's a power imbalance between those two groups, within the fandom -- where I'm defining "power within fandom" as the power to get the things you want out of fandom. Power isn't good or bad, of itself, it's just a thing that is, and all else being equal, most of us would rather have it than not. And McShep Wingnuts are being bitchy *while they enjoy the benefits of the fandom-power they command through the size of the ship.* The Other-Pairing Wingnuts are being bitchy from a losing position. I have a long history of sympathy with the losers; it's my bone-deep, second-generation hippie-pinko-liberal instincts coming out. I have what theologians call a "preferential option" for people who are in the minority, who feel disenfranchised, who have less power to control their environment than other people do.

Wow. I just - I've always kind of suspected that this sentiment lay at the heart of some fans' responses to this issue; I just never really expected to be proven right.

But I really think you're selling your segment of fandom short: after all, on the Net our power lies, in the main, in our words, both the quality and quantity. By that token, the McShep fans may have volume on their side, but these disenfranchised minorities sure as hell have righteous rage on their side, and a banner they can share with everyone from Emma Goldman to Malcolm. And in fandom, where an astonishing proportion of us were the geeks and freaks who didn't fit in, to be able to claim that kind of solidarity is a power all its own, especially when you can point to another group of fans and label them the Man.

The woman who is currently working two jobs, who lives in substandard housing and barely sees her kids and is worried that none of them will have it any better than she did because the neighborhood is rife with crime and drugs and the fucking school is falling apart and there's no money for books, well, she's in the same position as your average McDex fan. She just doesn't get as much mileage for her righteous rage as we do.

I'm ambivalent about the issue of "creating more bad feelings in the fandom," because there's already a lot of that.

There are always going to be bad feelings in every fandom you go into, because people are people, and a lot of people never get over being twelve. The tough part is deciding how we will conduct ourselves, how we will react to situations that threaten to diminish us. Ultimately, I choose to see the glass nine-tenths full; and yes, I am in fandoms (*cough* I Spy *cough*) where I could make the choice to see the glass pretty damned empty, or claim righteous indignation at the unfairness of it all. But I see every person who joins the fandom (or who even simply says, "Hey, they're pretty") as a gift, a joy in itself, and I don't worry about the people who will never join me in the love of my small obsession. We're people, not sheep, and everyone has a right to react in their own way. But sometimes I wish that fellow fans would think before posting something that will ultimately negatively impact on the joy of fellow fans. And I'm sorry, I don't distinguish or say that some of them have more of a 'right' to their anger than others. It's fucking fandom, it's not life. Your liking a slash pairing for which people have written five fics is not analogous to a shitty apartment, a rotten education and a neglected neighborhood. It just isn't.

I think if I'd kept my wits about me and kept my rhetorical shit together, I could have made a better case for my position, as someone who is an outsider to the ship but a fan of the pairing. I don't think I had to be the bad guy, except that I put myself in exactly that role by giving in to the temptation to vent rather than to build a case.

At least you and I agree on this. I wish you well in any case.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[tovalentin.livejournal.com]

hell, I'm one of the contributors to Surfacing

And you were invited to trib precisely because, as you know, I believe your love of Ronon and your exceptional writing are a combination not to be missed by any SGA fan. I wanted you because John/Rodney isn't your primary pairing: I wanted to see what you'd bring to it, and you completely lived up to my high expectations. :-)

I have to confess to a bit of a knee-jerk eyeroll (doesn't that sound painful?) at first as I read your rant, but--it was a rant! Venting is the whole point of a rant! It's your own bloody journal! Have at it, I say, and I'm very glad that in your thoughtful responses today you're not apologizing for expressing your frustration on your own platform.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[wesleysgirl.livejournal.com]

Perspective is a bitch, ain't it?

Exactly.

It's one of those things where the reasonable, pleasant, live-and-let-live faction of McShep fans -- which I genuinely believe is the vast majority of McShep fans, although I'll admit that my interaction in SGA fandom is fairly limited -- feel, it seems, negatively judged by people in fandom who are ANTI-McShep. I've certainly seen posts about McShep fans feeling upset because there are SGA fans who think there's no basis for the 'ship, no sub-text, that McShep fans are seeing something that isn't there, that many McShep fans are ONLY writing the pairing because it's popular and they want feedback.

From my perspective, the SGA fans who ARE valued, and viewed as such, are the ones who write good quality fic, produce good quality art and icons, and write interesting meta and episode reviews, REGARDLESS OF PAIRING. Often, I can identify X fan as "writes good fic" without even being able to tell you what pairing(s) she writes.

It's not any more fair to judge/bash McSheppers based on assumptions than it is to judge/bash those who like rarer pairings.

Ease up.

[terrie01.livejournal.com]

Okay, as the person who introduced the term "McSheep" into the thread, I would ask that you not attack the OP about it. As for "Is it offensive?" Yeah, it is. But, as I noted, I use the term when I'm feeling bitter. I started using it in response to the *repeated* experience of having some McKay/Sheppard fans assume that anything I wrote where the two of them appeared together was slashing the two of them, and that sex between those two characters was therefore required. Having the character-driven gen story I worked months on reduced to "Write a sequel where they have comfort sex" is pretty much guaranteed to leave me bitter about some fans' knee-jerk assumption that everyone shares their point of view.

Re: Ease up.

[lamardeuse.livejournal.com]

Okay, as the person who introduced the term "McSheep" into the thread, I would ask that you not attack the OP about it.

I don't know how on earth you can construe my listing some of the negative experiences I've had a McShep fan as an "attack on the OP", but I thank you for your opinion.

Re: Ease up.

[miera-c.livejournal.com]

Having the character-driven gen story I worked months on reduced to "Write a sequel where they have comfort sex"

Ouch.

Somewhere out there is a rant about feedback etiquette that needs to be written, but this isn't the place for it.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[nestra.livejournal.com]

Thanks, B.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[linabean.livejournal.com]

I completely know the feeling mz_bstone is talking about, and John/Rodney's never been my favorite pairing.

See, the thing is, I feel like complaints like this rant (as well as plenty of other complaints about McShep I've seen elsewhere, often just as asides) *do* implicate everyone who's ever enjoyed taking John/Rodney for granted, not just the annoying fans in question. Because the complaint, of course, isn't *just* about annoying behavior. For example, while a lot of us would find fannish behavior like that described in this rant annoying--really? A pairing bothers someone so much she has to publicly declare how icky it is instead of focusing on her preferred pairing? Really?--it's not a behavior that's unique to John/Rodney fans, and it doesn't tend to cause anything except a brief eye-roll when it comes from anyone who's not a John/Rodney fan. The reason why these annoying behaviors, when it's a McShep fan doing them, provoke ongoing resentment and rants instead of just a silent "Oh, fandom. So silly. So tiresome" reaction is, of course, because of the overwhelming dominance of John/Rodney. It's the whole fannish culture behind that one instance of annoying behavior that pushes it over the edge. And so if you follow the implications of the rant to their logical conclusion, that means that everyone who *doesn't* have a problem with the John/Rodney dominance is, at least in some small way, part of the culture of dominance and thus part of the problem.

And, yep, it makes people feel affronted. Incidentally, of course, this is also why, say, straight people get defensive when something they'd been enjoying without reservations gets labeled as heterosexist. They weren't actively doing anything homophobic themselves, but they still feel like they've been slapped because they don't want to see the dominance of their group problematized; they just want to go on enjoying what they enjoy and not have to think about why other people don't enjoy it, or how some people wish for the chance to enjoy other things, if only those things weren't being drowned out by the hetero-centric stuff. In *those* cases, I feel like complaints and rants against the dominant group are good and necessary, and that all the hetero-centrists deserve to be shaken out of their complacency about being dominant and to feel a little slapped, even if only a minority of them were being obnoxious. The rants are saying that queer people are entitled to the same representation and considerations as the dominant culture of hetero-centric people--and I agree with that. So, it's fair that everyone benefiting from the dominant culture gets called out, because it's oppressive and unjust to deny people what they're entitled to, and the entire dominant culture is doing that.

On the other hand, we have the case of pairing preferences in fandom. The dynamic is similar in that some people's interests are underrepresented, and that many people in the dominant group are indifferent about that, and a few obnoxious people in the dominant group don't want to think about those underrepresented groups at all. But it's also totally different in that I don't think anyone's entitled to have their favorite fandom pairings given any kind of consideration. It can suck when most of fandom isn't into the pairings you like, but that sucky state of things isn't oppression and it's not injustice. People who don't challenge the dominant culture aren't doing anything wrong. But when someone posts a complaint about the annoying behavior of a John/Rodney fan without finding the same behavior equally annoying in the fan of a less popular pairing, there's an implicit assumption that John/Rodney fans ought to behave more thoughtfully than any other fans because it's *unjust* that John/Rodney already gets so much attention, that other pairings aren't getting the kind of attention that the poster feels they're *entitled* to. It follows that those kinds of complaints are, even if unintentionally, tacitly saying that people who aren't helping fight the dominant culture are promoting or at least tolerating injustice. So, yeah, I think it's reasonable for John/Rodney fans of all stripes, not just the obnoxious wing, to feel unfairly called out.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

I think you've very accurately described how the power dynamic flows -- and I've actually been considering doing a second (saner) post talking about exactly that issue.

The only thing you and I differ on is whether people have a "right" to feel marginalized on the basis of pairings, given that it's just fandom and not real life in the way that one's sexual orientation affects their real life.

Interestingly, I think some of the same unfortunate things are happening here that happened in the (much more significant & painful) race discussion: the issue becomes unjustly personalized. I'm white and so are all the characters I write about, are you calling me out personally for this? Well, not really, not the way I read that conversation. And yet clearly there was no chance a lot of people weren't going to hear exactly that, just like now a lot of people are hearing "and it's the personal fault of all of you separately and individually" here when people talk about feeling pushed out of the fandom.

I don't know how to fix that. I wish I did. It's not my intention to penalize people for what they like in fandom, but however much I say that, I'm aware that's not what people hear. I really dunno.

Re: You have every right to vent.

[linabean.livejournal.com]

And, really, I think it's often the unfounded assumption of *entitlement* to representation of unpopular pairings that makes some fans feel so strongly that the John/Rodney squee is being shoved down their throats. Or, at least, I feel like it's their wish to see more non-McShep that makes them unfairly diagnose their annoyance with fannish culture as a problem with the McShep dominance rather than with the OMG!OTP!! winner-take-all focus some fans have about any chosen pairing. Personally, I think it's lame to see canon as fodder just to support one favored pairing--but there are other fans, and not just John/Rodney ones, who are in fandom precisely for that reason. It's not wrong of them to like that; it just means they have a different enough approach to canon that I avoid their posts, and would no matter what their OTP was. Or, personally, I can't imagine having such a squick for a pairing that I'd feel like I had to unsub from a newsletter just to avoid seeing headers for that pairing--but I know there *are* fans who have squicks like that, and would have those squicks no matter whether their own favored pairing was already well-represented or not.

Yeah, in SGA, the John/Rodney fans who approach canon and other pairings so narrowly are the ones who luck out in terms of being able to find lots of material to like--and, simultaneously, are the ones who are the most visible as they indulge in these approaches, because there's so many more of them--but it's not fair for me to lay my dislike of those approaches to fandom on the dominance of John/Rodney. Plus, if I *did* decide those annoying things were specifically a John/Rodney problem, I think I'd be likely to make myself get more and more worked up by most any mention of John/Rodney, because in my mind I'd have inextricably but unnecessarily linked McShep to fannish behavior I didn't like.

Or, to come at this from the food-metaphor angle, say every restaurant in town always has lots of strawberry shortcake on the menu and on the buffet tables and often complimentarily with every meal, but what I love is escargot and can hardly ever find it. If, out on the sidewalk, I overhear someone snacking on a strawberry shortcake and saying, "Oh, God, that cafe just got a shipment of snails, ugh, I'm staying out of there till escargot's back off the menu" and her friend says, "Yeah, well, I'll probably still eat there, but when I get the strawberry shortcake, I will be so grossed out if they mix escargot in with it"--I don't really think it'd be fair for me to conclude anything about them except that they have different tastes than me, even if the feelings that immediately occur to me are that they're lucky bastards for never having to go hungry and that they're philistines for not understanding how good the escargot is and that I wish they'd keep their voices down because I'm psyched about my snails. Until they tell me to my face I'm disgusting for liking what I like, or try to shut down restaurants that serve snails, or literally force me to eat the cake that's everywhere, then any bad feelings I have about them just reflect the fact that I wish there were more variety and a little less enthusiasm for the damned strawberry shortcake. And I do think it'd be an unfounded sense of entitlement if I felt everyone should change their reactions to what they naturally like and dislike in deference to my wishing that my tastes were better served. Definitely, if their natural reactions included rudely smacking their lips at food they liked, and ostentatiously gagging at they got food they didn't like, I wouldn't want to eat with them--but it would be silly of me to label those behaviors more or less obnoxious based on whether they were eating the strawberry shortcake or the escargot.

But! Yes, everyone does have the right to vent [g] And I appreciate that hth_the_first so clearly labeled this post as a rant, with caveats regarding its content, and that she's being so cool about in her responses to all kinds of comments. I think I'm mainly responding here to other commenters who're saying, "But no! This post is totally fair and reasonable!" My take is: nah, I don't think it is--but I also think everyone's got the right to be unreasonable in her own lj :)

Re: You have every right to vent.

[hth-the-first.livejournal.com]

That's all a very good way of putting things. I don't have any real disagreement with any of it, unless maybe it's that people's feelings about what they find sexually and emotionally desirable and about characters that they may (justly or unjustly, but it happens plenty) identify with run a lot deeper than their feelings about food. Fandom would be run a lot more smoothly if we didn't take things like that to heart any more than we do our lunches, but also, I think it would be less fun, too. It's the passion that people put into fandom that makes it such a well of creativity and pleasure and pain.

That doesn't mean that all bets are off and appropriate behavior is suspended, however. *g* It just means that I like to hope people can be empathetic when people like me lose their shit and take snails quite personally and behave badly. And you seem to have a very empathetic take about my irrationality, so thank you for that! *g*